Clean sheet early hemi build, help a mopar noob

Discussion about the Hemi in general.

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El Coolmino

Clean sheet early hemi build, help a mopar noob

Post by El Coolmino »

Hello all

First let me say you've got a great forum here, I've been reading for hours and learned lots of good stuff. Hopefully some of the more experienced members here can offer some advice...........

My situation, longtime GM guy (don't shoot!) who's well versed in more modern V8 stuff. So I understand the tech aspects, but have no clue about anything unique to mopar, let alone 50 year old mopar.

The car situation.......
About to embark on building a 28 Chrysler roadster, gonna have a local chassis shop scratch build me a rectangular tube frame. It'll be a vintage style hot rod, drop I beam axle, speedway quickchange rear, transverse leafs, etc. "old school" as they say. Just can't bear to have a small block chevy in something like this, even if they did run em back then.

I need to come up with an engine/trans before we start chassis construction, have been looking at early hemis and polyspheres to power this thing. There's a catch, gotta be stick shift. Not picky about it having 3 gears or 4, but gotta shift my own.

The engine needs to end up around 300 hp, any more would be overkill for a 2000 lb car without rollover protection. Ideal would be to find something that runs (poorly) since all my funds this year are headed into the chassis, and I'd hate to build around something that ends up junk and impossible to duplicate later

Thus, I've been poking around for a complete 50s mopar 4 door that I could scavenge an engine and trans out of, seems to be the most economical way to get all the extra bits. Unfortuantely, all the old mopars seem to be pushbutton automatics, have yet to even find a stick shift parts car for sale, unless it's got a straight six.

A friend of a friend has a complete, torn down, 241 hemi that I could score for a couple hundred. Like the look, hate the displacement

So to the knowledgable guys out there, if you were me, what would you be looking for?

Polysphere car to convert to hemi?
Stick with the polysphere?
Particular displacement of hemi or polysphere?
Particular make of engine, desoto, dodge, etc?
What vehicles should I focus on to find a V8 with a clutch?
Any particular engines that are difficult to convert to stick shift?
Should I just plan to buy the adapters cause they're all automatics?
Any engines that are more expensive to rebuild, or have lesser parts availbility?

Knowing what you do (and I don't), where would you start if you had a clean sheet and were spending your own money.......

Thanks in advance, (long replies appreciated!)
George
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Post by George »

You need to get Tex Smith's Hemi Book. There are adaptors available for a wide range of modern stick trannys, they fit all Dodge, DeSoto, & short tail Chrysler ( OEM 4Bl Chr Hemis 54-58). Best choice parts availability & prices are 1. Chrysler 2 Dodge 3 DeSoto. 392 Chr costs most to buy, but has more aftermarket parts & is usually a little cheaper to build, 331/354 cost less to buy, more to build. Dodges cost less than Chr. to buy, more cost (& less availability)for performance parts. DeSoto parts are even harder to find. 51-53(some 2bl '54s) have along tail like the Ford flathead, more expensive to get a tranny on, & lower performance heads.
Bailiesdad
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Bailiesdad »

Go with the Donovan Model D and really show some uniqueness. Weigh less than anyother thing possible and will fly. :D

A 392 hemi/trans combo will weigh in at 800-900 lbs and will be very wide. Weight is going to be a factor with that front end.
El Coolmino

Post by El Coolmino »

From what I've seen of the 392 hemi market, they're out of my price range. People seem to be paying $3K for something that needs fully gone thru :o . $3k is more like my budget for purchase and rebuild.

I will look into the Tex Smith book, heard that mentioned before, thanks for the tip.

So are all the old V8 mopars automatics? What kinds of 3 speed manuals did the factory put behind them? Are they so ancient and junky that I'm better off planning to buy an adapter and a toploader or T-10?

Also, did ma mopar mount the starter on the block, or the bellhousing? Wondering if the adapters suddenly open a can of worms with starter mounting.

Thanks for the replies, please keep em coming, I'm a bottomless pit of questions
desotoman
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:02 pm

Post by desotoman »

If you are on a tight buget, go with the 241 dodge. You can bore these motors out almost 1/8" for more displacement. Find some 315 - 325 heads and put them on. Put a 3/4 race cam in, 3-2 manifold, and some headers and you will have around 275 HP. But more important you will have the lightest chrysler hemi avalable in your car, so it will handle around turns. Adapters are out there so you could run a chevy trans behind the hemi. The starter will bolt to the adapter.

That is the way I would do it. Cheap, simple, and car will handle. Good luck.
Bailiesdad
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Bailiesdad »

"$3k is more like my budget for purchase and rebuild"

That eliminates the entire engine group "hemi" from the project.
El Coolmino

Post by El Coolmino »

How so? Looks like rebuild kits run 1000-1500. Assuming I stay away from 392s, 500-750 will buy me a core, even less if I'm buying a complete car for it's engine and scavenging other bits (dash, steering wheel, rims, transmission, etc) to help recoup purchase price. Assuming typical cost over-runs that leaves 1000 for machine work. Maybe I should clarify that budget as a longblock, but it seems very reasonable right now. Again, never done an antique engine or mopar, but from what I know of BBC and SBC, seems reasonable at the moment.
392heminut
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:16 pm

Post by 392heminut »

Go to www.hothemiheads.com and go to the swapmeet page. You'll find all different flavors of hemis there, and under $3k too.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda
Bailiesdad
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Bailiesdad »

392heminut wrote:Go to www.hothemiheads.com and go to the swapmeet page. You'll find all different flavors of hemis there, and under $3k too.
Hey 392hemi why not tell him where to get a rebuilt long block hemi for 3,000, like he is asking......anybody could steer him to a parts sale bin.

AGAIN rebuilt hemi for 3000 is unrealistic for the total budget.

Come on boys here is your chance to jump on and blast away at me again, post the total cost of your rebuilds to prove me wrong...

rebuild "kit" with cast pistons 1500-1600 (you want hi po so figure forged pistons +300)
regring cam 125-150
push rods 100-125
clean mag shot blast block and heads 300
freeze plugs 35-50
surface heads 150
bore block 200-250 sleeves???
Align bore block 150
valve job 250 no guides
new valves springs retainers ?? (not in kits)
rebuild carb(s) 125-300
dist? plug wires, etc...
exhaust mans?
trans adaptor 300-425

THEN add core cost for guaranteed no crack 241 engine, plus add for larger heads 500-800-1000

figure 5000-6500 and you will be more in line... probably more...
El Coolmino

Post by El Coolmino »

Bailiesdad wrote:AGAIN rebuilt hemi for 3000 is unrealistic for the total budget.
If you read my post above, you'll notice I clarify that as my longblock budget, modify your list accordingly and it actually proves my point.

Forged pistons for 300hp out of 331ci? Doubtful unless early hemis are totally weak pieces of cr@p. Considering the factory rating of most 4bbl engines add a performance cam and headers and it's pretty much there. It's not a drag car or going coast to coast, it's a cruiser that will be lucky to see 2500 miles a year.

Even with my short time here, already noticed a theme in your posts on other threads, and it's a universally disrespectful tone backed by questionable facts. Please don't start that here, cause even though I am noob to hemis, far from a noob to building cars and can smell BS from a mile away.

Everyone else, thank you for your respectful responses.
desotoman
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:02 pm

Post by desotoman »

Be selective on your core motor. Take the time and find one that is in very good shape. They are out there. That way you can get by with just rings, bearings, valve job, and gasket set. Not all hemi cores are used up needing new pistons etc. This will keep the price down. I have been collecting Desoto motors for over 20 years. Some I tore down were junk, others in pretty good shape. If you can do any of the work yourself that is a plus. If you are only going to put 2500 miles a year on it, you can get away with a cheap rebuild. Send your cam core out to someone like Chet Herbert to have them regrind it, that will save you some money.

Just because it says "HEMI" it does not have to be expensive. Some guys at swap meets jack the price up unrealisticly looking for the guy who has money, to come along, and buy his motor. Don't even look for 392 motors or parts because guys are asking more than they are worth. Keep your eyes and ears open and something good will come along. Good luck.
El Coolmino

Post by El Coolmino »

Thank you desotoman, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

I've since come up with a lead on a 331 desoto that's already rebuilt but is a 2bbl motor, and totally within my budget. Do desotos have a unique intake that would make a 4bbl manifold made of "unobtainium"? :D

And to ask another question (stupid as it sounds) Would a desoto in a chrysler be acceptable as "all mopar"? Keep in mind, I'm a chevy guy and don't know any better. :o It could actually be a desoto in a plymouth, but since it's only a partial body, nobody can really tell me. :lol:
DHEMI
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:01 am

Post by DHEMI »

Hey,don't let anyone talk you out of a Desoto.Can be built as inexspensevly as any other Hemi,some parts exchange.Mine was" rebuilt "25 yrs.ago,only 800 mi.,lower end perfect,but terrible valve job and int.valves with worst hone job ever seen.Had bored to brand x to use moly rings,forged pistons,balanced,new int.valves,nos Isky valve train,alum.frort cover,brand x w.pump,complete Mopar performance ign.kit.Am building my own 4 bbl.intake(WELL under$200.00).Still need oil filter adapter.Cost well under $4,400.00so far.Shop wise and buy well.I bought 3 nos cams, not all Isky,and sold 2 to pay for 1.
desotoman
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:02 pm

Post by desotoman »

Desoto's were 276-291-330-341-345 cubic inches. The 276-291 were low deck motors, and those manifolds only fit those motors. The 330-341-345 were the high deck motors, and only manifolds from those motors fit each other. If you have found a 330 desoto make sure it is a desoto and not something else. It should have an S-23, or S-24 in front of the serial number located just in front of the valley cover. For the 330 desoto a stock 4 barrel intake was avalable from the factory, also a two four barrel intake was made but they are pricey. Look for a stock four barrel manifold, there is nothing wrong with them.

In my opinion if you have a mopar in a mopar it is still a mopar. Good luck.
Bailiesdad
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Bailiesdad »

Come back with your final costs to rebuild the engine's long block AND tell how much you need to complete it.

OR

Come back when you hit 3000 and tell us the progress.

Good Luck
George
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Post by George »

El Coolmino wrote:Thank you desotoman, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

I've since come up with a lead on a 331 desoto that's already rebuilt but is a 2bbl motor, and totally within my budget. Do desotos have a unique intake that would make a 4bbl manifold made of "unobtainium"? :D

And to ask another question (stupid as it sounds) Would a desoto in a chrysler be acceptable as "all mopar"? Keep in mind, I'm a chevy guy and don't know any better. :o It could actually be a desoto in a plymouth, but since it's only a partial body, nobody can really tell me. :lol:
The vast majority of DeSotos had 2 bl intakes, maybe 10% had 4 bl, & 1-2% had 2X4. Therefore prices are high. The 330 had 8.5 comp ratio, so I'd use stock cast pistons. The 241 had 7-7.5, so you'd need the custom forged pistons to get a decent ratio. In street rodding anything goes as far as dropping engines into cars, so no problem putting a Dodge or DeSoto in the Chrysler body, plus it would still be eligible for Mopar only shows!
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Post by johnny5 »

Desoto and Dodge hemis are the best bet for your chassis. They are about 15% more to rebuild than a Chrysler. The dollar/hp ratio is not as good because you end up with less cubes ~ less hp but it'll work out better in the end. A quality modern rebuild will cost around 4-5K. Econo jobs can be done for less than half of that but you get what you pay for.
mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Post by mart »

[quote="I've since come up with a
lead on a 331 desoto that's already
rebuilt but is a 2bbl motor, and
totally within my budget. Do
desotos have a unique intake that
would make a 4bbl manifold made
of "unobtainium"? :D

And to ask another question (stupid
as it sounds) Would a desoto in a
chrysler be acceptable as "all
mopar"? Keep in mind, I'm a
chevy guy and don't know any
better. :o It could actually be a
desoto in a plymouth, but since
it's only a partial body, nobody
can really tell me. :lol: [/quote]
------------------------------
If it's going into a street rod where
having the right "look" is as
important as practicality - instead
of one of the "cast unobtanium"
stock 4bbl. or twin-4-bbl intakes,
why not consider a 4-2bbl., or
6-2bbl. aftermarket log manifold?
These are available used on ebay
frequently and Eelco even makes
a beautiful brand new cast aluminum
6-2bbl. specifically for the DeSoto.
If you can cut, weld and mill steel
or aluminum tube and plate, you
could even fabricate your own
fairly easily.Back in the old days
this was fairly common- a lot of
guys fabricated their own crude
log manifolds out of steel and
brazed or gas welded them)
Because each individual log of the
manifold bolts directly to a
cylinder head and the connection
between the two logs is via
sections of 'cut to length' radiator
hose, rather than a casting, deck
height is not a consideration. If the
idea of setting up and running 6-2bbl.
carbs seems daunting and excessive,
you can blank off the 4 outer carbs
of a 6-2bbl... set-up and run the
engine on the two center 2bbls.,
each carb feeding the log on each
bank. Six-twos on a log manifold
would definitely look cool and
"period on 50's style hot rod!

About carbs - most of the early
log manifolds are set-up for Ford
or Stromberg 3-bolt base carbs.
These are usable, but getting
pricey for good ones. A better
choice in my opinion would be a
set of 4-bolt base 2GC Rochester
2-bbls. These carbs are cheap,
parts and kits available
everywhere and while still simple,
are much more sophisticated than
the 1930's design Ford and
Stromberg carbs. Some log
manifolds came drilled for GM
Rochester 2GCs, or you
could modify and redrill the
3-bolt manifold flanges to accept
the Rochester carbs or buy or
fabricate adapters.

By the way, here's some links to the
new Eelco cast aluminum 6-2bbl.
DeSoto intake - it is a beautiful
piece!!

Eelco homepage:
www.eelco-usa.com

Desoto 6x2 log manifold
[DS62] info:
http://tinyurl.com/eft23

Photo:
http://tinyurl.com/h7tdt.

P.S. Please post some pics of both
the engine and the car abd chassis
as it comes along!
=========================
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Post by johnny5 »

Bailiesdad wrote:
392heminut wrote:Go to www.hothemiheads.com and go to the swapmeet page. You'll find all different flavors of hemis there, and under $3k too.
Hey 392hemi why not tell him where to get a rebuilt long block hemi for 3,000, like he is asking......anybody could steer him to a parts sale bin.

AGAIN rebuilt hemi for 3000 is unrealistic for the total budget.

Come on boys here is your chance to jump on and blast away at me again, post the total cost of your rebuilds to prove me wrong...

rebuild "kit" with cast pistons 1500-1600 (you want hi po so figure forged pistons +300)
regring cam 125-150
push rods 100-125
clean mag shot blast block and heads 300
freeze plugs 35-50
surface heads 150
bore block 200-250 sleeves???
Align bore block 150
valve job 250 no guides
new valves springs retainers ?? (not in kits)
rebuild carb(s) 125-300
dist? plug wires, etc...
exhaust mans?
trans adaptor 300-425

THEN add core cost for guaranteed no crack 241 engine, plus add for larger heads 500-800-1000

figure 5000-6500 and you will be more in line... probably more...
Just an addition; a cylinder head rebuild will cost around $650 for Chrysler and $875 for Dodge or Desoto. This may vary by about 50 buckes either way depending on which shop you use but it's realistic. This includes surfacing, enlarging pockets for bigger valves (lots of sources for Chrysler, Campbell Enterprises was the best custom valve price for the others at just under $400 for intake and exhaust), installing new hard seats, bronze guides (HH, need shortening for non-Chrysler) and new springs, locks and retainers (PAW). Again, this is for a total rebuild. You could get away with a valve job, new springs and guide liners for much less but then you're stuck with 50 year old valves.
Bailiesdad
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Bailiesdad »

I am just waiting for the source for the cast, 60-80-125 over higher compression pistons from his "$3000 Dodge or Desoto build", that nets 300 HP..... :o

The ANTICIPATION is killing me.... :P
DHEMI
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:01 am

Post by DHEMI »

Let me know where the funeral is.I'll send flowers.
Bailiesdad
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Bailiesdad »

DHEMI wrote:Let me know where the funeral is.I'll send flowers.


"Am building my own 4 bbl.intake for less than $200" This should be a real piece of art....

I'll add that to the list of pipe dreams too......... :wink:
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scottm
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Post by scottm »

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