THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Discussion about the Hemi in general.

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THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by moparornocar » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:42 am

THE BOSS IS BACK, yeah right, another scam

In Dec. 2005, the below writer, Roger Gorringe, interviewed John Force about such as his future plans in NHRA FUNNY CAR racing. You may or may not be aware that every FC race Force ever won, his car was powered by a CHRYSLER HEMI® motor.

Although he did not do so while he was driving the GM bodied cars, when he switched to Ford bodies he began his implications that his car was /is powered by a Ford motor as in the below:

Here's a direct quote from John: "For all the cutting-edge, next-generation vehicles there's no place else like the LA Auto Show," Force said. "There, we can show just how much muscle Ford packs into the 7,000-horsepower Castrol GTX Ford Mustang Funny Car engine. Since 1997, Ford has been an essential part of John Force Racing. I am pleased and honored that we can bring my hot rod to the LA Auto Show and highlight Ford Racing's success and also show off a creative King of the Hill paint scheme."

But John, it is a CHRYSLER, not FORD, engine.

The below excerpt is taken from about 75% down in this link:

Roger Gorringe: Your plans for 2006, I guess it's to recapture the title?

John Force: We're in the development to build an all-Ford motor, NHRA-spec motor. We've been given the equipment by a company called Facial, Fadal Machinery Giddings and Lewis. it's a worldwide corporation that will take us into the market. We've got a big machine shop in LA. We build our own blowers, our own heads, clutches, but now we're gonna build the block. Because we want an all-Ford motor and yet we have to fit underneath the NHRA….this won't be a Chrysler design, everything evolved from the Chrysler. This will be a Ford spec motor by our brain trust, it's an exciting new time to grow because the financing's there, because who can afford to go out and buy ten million dollars worth of equipment to build machinery? I went after a sponsorship six years ago, I said I'll supply the money for the suppliers to buy the manpower, and they'll work with us with technology, and Fadal Giddings and Lewis will supply the equipment, that's two huge companies worldwide. And Ford's really into It.

OK, let us fast forward to late '06 to early '07 and lookee, the much anticipated, new FORD nitro engine is alive, well almost. Does anyone recall some 35-40 years ago when Ford made their last venture into nitro racing; what a disaster, if they didn't explode on the starting line, odds are they would near the end of the quarter mile. In the several years of hired gun drivers, and they were about the best of that era, they won a total of 4 races before throwing in the towel.

Here's the link for the below pictures: ... _1-43.html

Image Image
While on a visit to the John Force shops in Southern California the Agent saw the block and heads shown in these photos and casually asked if these were the prototypes for the Ford engine that John Force Racing is developing for Ford Motor Company. The tour guide answered in the affirmative so the Agent snapped a few images with his trusty, small, spy camera. During a Q&A today Force repeated the claim that he plans to have the first working version of the new engine ready by June. [01/30/07]

Here's where the big, BOSS news really starts, and from the real horse's mouth. This is an excerpt from the biggest of the big wheels of Ford Racing.

The Ford BOSS 500 Nitro Drag Racing Engine:

Racing enthusiasts know that the true heart of a race car is its engine - and Davis wants to make sure that the "heart" that powers NHRA Funny Car Mustangs of John Force Racing is pumping "blue" blood in the future.Davis and John Medlen of John Force Racing challenged themselves to develop the new Ford BOSS 500, the first modern nitro engine for drag racing. The BOSS 500 was tested on-track for the first time on Oct. 18 and was unveiled for media today.

"We wanted to be in NHRA Funny Car with an engine that we really could call all our own," Davis said. "I wanted people to see a Ford Mustang race car and know that it's winning races with true Ford power."

Davis and Medlen looked at the current nitro engine, discussed where they felt it had weaknesses, and decided to design and build a new engine to address them.

The BOSS 500 is the first nitro drag racing motor designed with analytical tools. It has a strengthened block for better durability and new cylinder heads developed by Ford and Force engineers. The basic design will favor areas such as the main caps register and the main webs in the block. Its engine block also is anodized blue after machining, helping ensure fans and competitors alike know when they're seeing a Ford nitro engine under the hood.

Most of the external surface areas on the new 500-cubic-inch engine have been redesigned; a new belly pan was designed for better sealing; and the valve covers purposely call back the old Ford BOSS motors. The engine also features Ford main bearings with actual parts numbers in the Ford performance catalog.

We had three things in mind when we set out on this project," Davis said. "First, for marketing purposes, we wanted to say that we were putting reality behind the term 'Powered by Ford.'

"Second, on the technical side, we have always helped out with aero, chassis development and now safety, but we always stopped short of the engine. This project has been a technical exercise for our engineers and the Force team to take the current motor, redesign it and make it a Ford.

"Finally, we want fans to associate this engine with Ford and Force, but we also know this provides a new revenue opportunity for us," Davis added. "In Funny Car, the plan is for this to be a John Force Racing-exclusive engine at the start, but we do want to be able to sell it to Top Fuel teams for competition in the near future."

Davis said that the current plan is for new Force Mustang driver Mike Neff to use the Ford BOSS 500 engine full-time in 2008 as it goes through its development phase. The other Force Mustang drivers - John Force, Ashley Force and Robert Hight - will use the engine after it has been further developed.

Ford and Force Racing also are investigating a team to be the first development operation in Top Fuel, with a measured, commercial rollout to more competitors after it has gone through a prove-out stage in that division.

OK, here's the link where the above can be found: ... ease=27129

On 3/28/08 I attended the NHRA Houston, TX event to see a day of time trials and get my semi-annual fill of nitro fumes and hear the thundering roar of 8000 or so Horsepower engines. While there I had a chance to see and take pictures of the the FORD (warmed over Chrysler) engine and have a little conversation with Mike Neff, driver of the aforementioned car.

I asked Mike, "Is it really a Ford or is it a warmed over Chrysler"? Mike replied, "It really is a Ford". I then asked Mike, "Is it a "push rod hemi"? Mike replied, "Yes". I said, "Then it really is a Chrysler wearing a Ford badge". He then replied, "Well, it has got Ford main bearings".

OK, I have a couple of pictures which show the cylinder head is a true HEMI, plus a shot of the very unique style HEMI rocker arms which by the way first appeared in 1951 Chrysler.

Image Image

Neither of the two above pictures reveal anything remotely near the design of any engine ever built by Ford or any automotive manufacturer except Chrysler.

It seems that Force/Ford want to "hang their hats" on only the engine main bearings in order to claim it is a Ford design and this brings to mind how that years ago a main/rod bearing oiling problem was solved as noted in the following excerpt and link.

From the start, Pete struggled with oiling system problems with the little Ford motors. The Ford, of course, was a purely passenger car based design and was never engineered to handle the kind of power output (supercharged, on gas or nitro/alcohol) that Pete's modifications produced. The result was a serious "appetite" for main and rod bearings, this problem being severely accelerated when Pete ran on fuel. (Hardly a big surprise!) He finally solved those problems by enlarging the entire oiling system, rerouting more oil to the mains and rods, and building his own large-volume, high-pressure oil pump.

Ironically, when Pete went to the new SOHC 427 Ford "Cammer" he ran into more oil system problems, as did all the Ford Cammer racers who ran blown motors. (The injected nitro motors seemed to survive with only moderate maintenance) This caused considerable grief (Kalitta destroyed "truck loads" of SOHC 427's in the early days of running the Fords!), and Pete spent a considerable amount of time "bottom-end diving" to replace mains and rods that were "one-pass wonders."

The final cure for all those woes was the adaptation of the basic oiling system developed (also by much blood, sweat and burned bearings!) by Chrysler for the then-new 426 "Late Model" hemi motors. Ford guys also found their parts problems eased because they went to Chrysler style/size bearings and the Chrysler oiling systems.

You might wonder why I chose to name this little story, "THE BOSS IS BACK". While I was at the Houston race, sitting in the stands, some kid comes up, sits right in front of me and he has on a new T-shirt with written on the back, "THE BOSS IS BACK".
'51 Hemi & 55 SBC, a class of their own

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by 2SLO4U » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:35 am

sounds like the "BOSS" is still taking it in the "BACK" - the photos you showed look like no FORD engine i have seen - sure looks like a Chrysler based HEMI to me.

2003 1500 HEMI 2WD Laramie
1964 D100 426W High Performance Package

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by mart » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:48 pm

Yeah, but the main bearings have a Ford part number
on them and are supposedly even listed in a Ford parts
book somewhere it must be a Ford engine!!! <GRIN>
Regarding the problems with the 427 Cammer motor.
Besides the oiling problems noted above, the Cammers
were also notorious for the over 6 foot long timing chain
causing major problems too- especialy in blown fuel
applications. The excessively long chain required to drive
the overhead cams would stretch at high rpm , causing
the cam on one bank to retard. This in turn would cause
the engine to spit back through the intake ports. This
usually happened just about the time the car would be
going through the lights - and would cause the blower
to explode. Remember too, that this was in day of front
motored diggers, so the blower would explode, literaly,
right in the drivers face, drenching him in shrapnel and
fire! Not nice at 220-plus mph! Pete Robinson eventually
'sort of solved this problem' at least for his own engines,
with an exotic, hugely expensive, homemade gear drive
set-up to replace the stock Ford timing chain. Unfortunately,
he was killed in a racing accident before his timing gear
set-up was really sorted out or marketed and by that time,
most racers had moved on from the Cammer anyway.


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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by moparornocar » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:37 am

The Top Fuel/FC engine making some 8-9000 HP is an incredible monster and really complicated and misunderstood. In order to prevent self destruction from detonation the engines are ran very rich which slows down the combustion process and at the same time holds the combustion pressure down as well as lengthning the pressure as the piston travels downward. Actually it may be more like a Diesel cycle that an Otto cycle.
So, when the cam tries to open the exhaust valve at some 40 degrees before bottom dead center there is considerable combustion pressure on the valve head attempting to hold it shut and of course the 6' long bicycle type chain used in the scammer is not going to like the extra pressure.
And keep in mind, I've read in several places that the spark plugs actually burn up somewhere before the end of the run and ignition is caused by compression and the glowing remains of the plugs.
The opening of the exhaust valve with high combustion pressure causes the extreme noise and extra loud popping even when at idle rpm.
'51 Hemi & 55 SBC, a class of their own

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by mart » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:37 pm

I agree with what you say, but back in the
late '60's - early 70's T/F engines were not
developing anywhere to what they are
today. Back then they were putting out around
2500 hp and the engines were still using a lot
of stock parts. Usually a fuel motor back then,
was a basically stock Chrysler Hemi - either
392 or 426 flavor, or the odd Ford 'Cammer'
- with little more than a set of aluminum rods,
some aftermarket low-compression 'blower'
pistons added and a cam change. Cylinder
pressures were no where near what the are
today in a modern 9000 hp fuel motor - but
it was still enough to cause grief with the
Cammer's ultra-long stock timing chain set-up
- while the Hemi's usually sufficed (and
survived) with little more than an 'off-the-shelf'
Milodon or Donovan gear drive, some
heavy-duty pushrods and stronger aftermarket
rocker arms on the exhaust side. The Cammer
probably had more potential then the pushrod
Hemi ,but in typical Ford fashion with their
exotic factory race car stuff, they never bothered
developing it or working the bugs out of.If
Ford had produced the Cammer in quantity,
if they had actually installed them as an
option in regular production cars like Chrysler
did with the Hemi - and if they had bothered
to pursue some sort of gear drive for the cams
- like Pete Robinson's home-made set-up - and
then made it available to the racers, it might have
been an entirely different story. As it was, once
NASCAR banned the Cammer for stock car
racing, Ford simply lost all interest in
developing the motor further.

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by moparornocar » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:56 am

This is for an unblown nitro engine. I am very surprised the EVO, exhaust valve open is as early as it is at about 97* ATDC and look at the pressure still in the cylinder.
I would really like to see one of these charts on a TF/FC engine making up to max. HP.
'51 Hemi & 55 SBC, a class of their own

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by JTurner427 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:38 pm

Henry Ford had a working vehicle in 1896, & Ford started Henry Ford Company in late 1901. Henry Ford Company was not the most profitable company due to an advisor in the company. Chief Engineer Henry Ford saw that the company was headed nowhere & he sold his shares in Henry Ford Company, later to become Cadillac Auto Co & obviously sold to GM in the mid ‘20s.

Henry Ford moved on to partner with Malcomson Coal Co where they leased a shop & contracted the machine shop owned by the Dodge Brothers to make PARTS DESIGNED BY FORD. Sales were slow & the Dodge Brothers wanted their return for making the $190,000 in parts. In return, Ford got the company reincorporated as Ford Motor Company & gave the Dodge Brothers shares in the company to pay them back. The Dodge Brothers worked for Ford for about ten years until 1913, & in (the very next year) 1914 the Dodge Brothers started their “own” line of cars. These were mostly of Ford’s engineering design, refurbished Ford panels, sporting the Dodge name, & just like most cars they were powered by Ford Flatheads. (& ALL, 100% of Flatheads are Hemis……………FoMoCo just doesn’t harp on the fact that they came up with the idea that Chrysler stole & redevelop into their Hemi)

So....................................who stole who’s idea?

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by NE57 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:03 am

>"100% of Flatheads are Hemis"<

How do you figure that? Flatheads aren't even OHVs.

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by JTurner427 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:40 pm

The idea of the hemi is to get the a/f mixture to explode like a shape charge. Having the plug in the middle of the combustion chamber is the first step in this process. When the piston nears TDC the mixture is ignigted & the resulting explosion explodes in on itself building TREMENDOUS pressure. This is true for Flatheads too because their plugs are in the optimal position. The only drawback is that the valves are off to the side, less flow, less compression, less even pressure & from the shape charge effect. But Flatheads were the norm for the longest time.

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by NE57 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:12 am

Me not being an engineer, take this with a spoonful of salt...OK on the plug location, makes a difference, flame propogation and all that. I think the single biggest factor is that a hemispherical chamber allows the valves to be canted and somewhat opposing each other, valves opening away from the cylinder wall. Clear shot down the port into the cylinder. And straight ports too, no twisting to get around the casting requirements of say a wedge. What is that you do when you port? Not just making the port larger, but a better shape often too.

The literature says Chrysler developed their design for WWII inline(straight or V, I dunno) aeronautic engines. my opinion only but I think this has more to do with double rocker shafts than hemi chambers per se. Initially Chrysler billed their new engine as 'double rocker shaft' or somesuch, so that might give us a clue as to what they thought was the innovation. Radial engines often used hemi heads and valve arrangement before that, so no chrysler didn't invent the hemi itself. The radials, as I recall, had pushrods and rockers and a weird kind of cam. It actually was a bumpy rotating ring rather than a shaft. A lot of motorcycles have hemi heads, pushrod or OHC.

Look at a diagram of a flathead, the intake charge has to snake its way thru the port turning roughly 180° or more. Restriction. Look down the port of a hemi and you can see the cylnder wall opposite. Much less restriction. That's probably why Duntov designed hemi heads for the flattie, to open up the breathing.

Who stole what from whom? I dunno, who cares? It is possible for designers to come up with essentially the same thing at the same time, but independently.

I've been thinking that after I finish my hemi project, which might bust my retirement, I should do a flathead. Juxtaposition. You're right though, at one time the flattie was THE engine for hotrods. Later it was the hemi. How cool would it be to represent the forties and the fifties hot rod scene with two very different but equally historic motors?

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by polyspheric » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:46 pm

The idea of the hemi
Except for the Chrysler factory and popular language for the last 60 years. "Hemi" means hemispherical, or half-sphere - nothing more, nothing less. Hemi does not even define an engine, but a 3-dimensional geometric shape.

Having the plug in the middle of the combustion chamber is the first step in this process.
Almost no hemi motors have a centrally located plug - there's no room between the valve seats.
On the other hand, conical chambers, as found in some 2-strokes, are not anything like a hemi (no valves, no curved walls) but do have a centrally located plug.

When the piston nears TDC the mixture is ignigted & the resulting explosion explodes in on itself
This never happens. There is no explosion, and the combustion begins from the plug gap and the flame kernel radiates in all directions o - u - t - w - a - r - d.

This is true for Flatheads too because their plugs are in the optimal position.
No, the plugs are almost always above the intake valve, or at least 80% of the way toward 1 end of the chamber. I've never seen a production flathead motor with a central plug.
Exactly which flathead engines have you worked on?

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by moparornocar » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:13 pm

Hey jturner427, I really don't have the time or desire to detail that most you have written is incorrect, but here's a little ditty I wrote for another board. Enjoy.
'51 Hemi & 55 SBC, a class of their own

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by BlueDjinn » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:45 pm

Ordinarily I just can't be bothered commenting, but I guess I felt the
need to "vent my spleen" after
having read an article by Dean McNulty in the August 9 Toronto SUN
newspaper, about FORD
introducing the Mustang into NASCAR and Brian Wolfe's remarks on the
Mustang in NHRA.
I made it pretty clear what set me off and I wasn't expecting any
reply, and Mr. McNulty did not
disappoint me by not dignifying me with a response.

You know, there are only so many ways that something can be said, and
I couldn't believe the
coincidence of stumbling onto this thread on this site here. I'm not in
the habit of plagiarizing anybody
nor do I think that I paraphrased anyone from here; but I said what I
said, the way I'd say it.

Anyway, just so you know how I reacted to Mr. McNulty's newspaper
article I'll post it here.
Feel free to delete it as you wish.
The more astute might find my letter to Mr. McNulty is flawed in certain
respects and I suppose that
it is. For example I said that John Force "painted" his engine "Ford
Blue" when in fact I believe that it
was anodized blue. Well, even the breech-birth progeny of a brother and
sister union should know
what paint is, but anodized is probably a mystery.
I haven't used the word HEMI anywhere in my letter either. I didn't
feel the need.

Hello Mr.McNulty. I just finished reading "New Trick Pony" in Sunday's SUN. Maybe I'm just being a
little over reactive today but I would like to comment on a statement made by Brian Wolfe, director
of Ford North America Motorsports when he says; "Mustang has dominated other forms of racing,
including NHRA drag racing", blah blah blah. This statement is illustrated by the Quick Lane,
Motorcraft, Mustang bodied, Funny Car. You know, there are a lot of people out there, misinformed,
uninformed, or just plain stupid that don't know that every Top Fuel Funny Car and every Top Fuel
Dragster in NHRA is powered by a Chrysler engine or a derivative of the Chrysler design. Nothing else.
I don't know about now, but a couple of years back there were a half dozen non Chrysler powered entries
running Alcohol in IHRA but none of them were winning any races. They were getting their asses handed
to them by the Chrysler powered cars and all of the nitro burning cars were and still are Chrysler powered.
John Force has tried to appease his Ford fans by coming up with his amazing "Ford" nitro motor.
Basically, what he has done is take a Chrysler Top Fuel engine and modify the bottom end to accomodate
Ford main bearings, painted it "Ford Blue" and modified the cylinder heads to accept Ford rocker covers.
Well I'll let Mr. Force "hang his hat" on those Ford main bearings if that's what turns his crank but the fact
of the matter is he's still running a Chrysler powered car. Every race and every championship that John Force
has won driving his Mustang bodied Funny Car was powered by a Chrysler engine. Neither Ford nor any
division of General Motors have built an engine that can tolerate the rigors of nitromethane fuel. I think that
it is rediculous to even see non Chrysler bodied vehicles running in Top Fuel when they are incapable of
building their own engines; and then to have someone openly brag when their Blue Oval or their Bow Tie
wins a race or championship is just pure tripe. Not too long ago I saw a Top Fuel dragster that said "TOYOTA"
on the rocker covers of what is unmistakably a Chrysler nitro engine. So who does the bow and the curtsy
for that one? Who is allowing this garbage to proliferate. Why is it tolerated? Why does it continue?
A lot of things can be done to an engine to make it quite different from its stock condition.
For example, a 400 cubic inch, B series Chrysler can be taken out to 470 cubic inches by offset grinding
and undersizing the rod journals of the crankshaft to accept the shorter Chevrolet big block connecting rods,
which must now be fitted to custom pistons to accomodate the Chevy wristpins.
I suppose that in John Force's way of thinking that engine is now a Chevy Rat motor or some other thing, on
the basis that it's running Chevy rods! Well I wouldn't buy that at all. Horsepower is made in the head and
the heads on that engine are the same ones that were on there in the first place, Chrysler's.
Now if I sound pro Chrysler or anti Ford that's not the issue at all. Right now I drive a Cadillac powered by a
gasoline burning Oldsmobile V8; and I say that because it could have been the Oldsmobile diesel which is
a bloody disaster of an engine and you couldn't give me one of those.
I just think that people need to know a lot more about what they think they're seeing and they need to know
a whole lot more than what they're being told. I'm not fooled by what's going on in motor sports, I am rather
disgusted by it.
If Ford wants to bring the Mustang into NASCAR; fine bring it; but I've listened to all the "Mustang has dominated"
garbage I can handle. In other words, I think that Brian Wolfe should shut his pie-hole.

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; Thats right!

Post by bigblk665 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:54 am

Well i guess those engines Force is using came in a Chryler 300. Probably around 1962. Get real. The truth is this. No U.S. automakers have released a motor for racing with hemi heads on it that you could buy in one of their cars off the showroom floor. since the 70's. Anything after that has all been the aftermarket period. And as far as the Ford Boss 429 motors being copies of the Chryler engine. Well the Boss only has a 93 cc combustion chamber. And what does the chryler have? 174cc's??????? and the Boss has its own valve angles. And its valves are twisted and off set unlike the chryler. You have no argument with me that the Mopar Hemi is best for nitro racing. The chambers are big enough thats for sure. And that works great for blower motors because of the VE. However the Boss is much better for gas powered racing. NHRA IHRA. If you add up all the NHRA and IHRA Pro Stock wins by different manufactors. I see Chryler in 3rd place. Big Chambers don't work well with gasoline. two spark plugs helped. But unless your running nitro. The Hemi is not king. I have'nt seen any nitro powered cars being in the Chryler show rooms for sale to the public. But they would sell you one if they could. The feds probably shut them down for doing it though. In fact the CHEVY HEMI is nothing more than the Boss 429 head with a fancier valve cover. It uses the same valve arrangment as the currect IHRA Boss Pro Stock. So see. Its not the automakers building this stuff. Its the racing folks who want to win. And the U.S atuomakers are there to claim involement. Hey when Mopar was racing back in the early days. They were a force to be reckoned with. But you have to give credit where credit is due. The Boss Hemi ford has done its fair share of stomping the competition on race day. What i can't stand is when some of think that some how a Einstein was working at chryler. And somehow this guy knew and could see into the future. B/S, The Chryler Hemi came out and was in the right place at the right time. If drag racing had never started up. The Mopar Hemi would have died. The Hemi weighed too much and it was a huge gas hog. It would have faded away. Believe me when i say no one working at chryler at the time knew what was coming down the road. They were just lucky to have that motor when they did. Remember this. Back in the early days. It was'nt the lack of money to go fast. It was the lack of developed engine parts. Very much different from today. Today you can build anything you want. The problem today is how much money do you have? And don't forget when a V6 Buick with 231 cubes was racing in IHRA Pro stock. How could a 231 Cube beat a 665 cube big block Hemi? Its called technoligy. TURBO's. But don't kid yourself. The Chryler Hemi and the Ford Boss did'nt get to be as fast as they currently are because of the U.S automakers. It was the crew cheifs and engine builders like you and me that made these motors win. While the automakers rode our shirts tales waving their banners claiming to be the einstiens behind all these victorious wins. It was guys who love drag racing that sat up without sleep for days in a dyno room looking for more power. The automakers are in business for one thing. SELL CARS. AS dangerous as Nitro fuel racing is. Did you expect Ford to completly redesign the Nitro Race motor? And you don't think if it was sucessful mopar would'nt go ahead and copy it. Hey what works in top fuel today is what everyone is running. But its not the Chryler Hemi you buy at the local dealer today or even back in the 1970's. And from what i've seen lately. The 2009 2010 cobra jet drag mustangs are faster than the Hemi challengers and camaros. Now this is factory involement. Nitro racing has nothing to do with the automakers ford or mopar. Ford probably is devevloping another winning Pro stock motor that won 5 world championships. They may just be using John force to develope the new blocks and heads for Pro stock. Its a test bed so to speak. The truth is they want your business and your money. Just like the old days. I say build your hot rods and enjoy them along with anyone who's owns a Ford Mopar Chevy. The chongs don't get it. Take a chong for a ride if you want to change the current minds of the day. The point is have fun. And respect all hot rodders despite what you think is right. Fords have won. Chevy's have won. Mopars have won. Its all about making money. Yours and mine. Spend your money and build your Hemi. I'll spend my money and build my Boss. Don't run around town looking to race 4 banger pinto. look for some real competition. And when a Fast Boss ford pulls up beside you that you feel will stomp you. Don't put your turn signal on and go the other way. Theres always somebody faster than you. And if you get beat. You'll just go out and by more parts to beat this guy. But remember who's making the money. Its an endless cycle. But its sure fun when you win. And you can hold your head up high and brag to everyone. Somebody faster will find you in due time. :o The question is this. Will you race? :oops: or will you run? :( And if you run will you still brag about the past victories? :lol: Because the past is just that. :lol:

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Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by moparornocar » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:36 pm

Hey bb, good job there; for a minute I thought you were serious and then I realized your are just joking. Have you ever considered why they came up with the Ford Fun Weekend or whatever it is/was called. They want some Fords/Ford engines in the winners circle. Take a look at this:

2002 @ Phoenix, 2 class wins

2003 @ Lucas/Brainerd 1
@ Carquest/Rt 66 1
@ Dallas/O'Rielly 1
@ LV/Delco 1

2004 @ E-town/K&N 1
@ Seattle/CQ 1
@ Brainerd/Lucas 1
@ Reading/Lucas 1
@ Las Vegas 1

2005 @ Houston 1
@ Denver 1
@ Brainerd 1
@ U S Nats CE 1
@ Pomona Stk 1

2006 @ Somona, 7/30 Treadwell 1
2006U.S. Natls@Indy Treadwell 1

2007 Jeff Jackson Wilsonville OR '68 Mustang Ford 565 at phoenix 2/25/07
4/29/07 Michael Iacono, Wading River NY, '69 Mustang Stock
2007 Jackson, Mustang, Seattle, Super Street
2007 Memphis, Stock, Nick Morris, Bardstown KY, '98 Mustang

2008, Somona, Eric Waldo, Richland WA, '69 Mustang, Stock

’09 WN John Calvert, Lancaster CA, '08 Mustang
’09 Las Vegas, SC, Michael Miller, Santa Fe NM, Cameron-Ford
Chicago 2009 Super Street Ryan Giacone, Phoenix AZ, '88 Thunderbird
Rick Baehr, Wellington OH, '88 Mustang, M/SA,
’09 Seattle Gary Ericksen, Vancouver WA, '84 Mustang

2010 Houston John Garner, Houston TX, Herndon-Ford, T/D
2010 Englishtown Ken Miele, Egg Harbor Twp NJ, '67 Mustang,
2010 Seattle Kevin Cour, Flanders NJ, '10 Mustang, A/SA,

Have you ever taken the time to count the Ford powered entries in a NHRA event; at the most about 30 or so, why, they know they can't win.

But back to the Ford\Force scam which is what this topic is really about. It's like this, if you like Fords, OK, but why does anyone want to drag Mopar down in this muck. I say it takes a subteen mentality to look at the evidence in the scam story and not know the engine is nothing more than Mopar wearing a boss 500 badge.

And by the way, the following story tells how and why Glidden was able to win the pro-stock races. Ford simply agreed.

And if you get bored, here's a little about what I was doing in the 60s. ... rasher.htm
'51 Hemi & 55 SBC, a class of their own

Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:27 pm


Post by BlueDjinn » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:42 pm

moparornocar. It gave me a headache to read post #14. Convoluted, non sequitur tripe, all of it.
Not exactly "hooked on phonics" is he. About the only thing that I agree with him saying was the second
word from the beginning of his post. Yes, he is a lower case "i".
Now, for his and any other lurking Ford fruitcake's information, the Chrysler factory is still very much
involved with the HEMI engine, with both a street and a separate strip versions.

The new 426 HEMI and 440 Wedge blocks from Chrysler are superior castings from all new tooling.
As all new tooling for engine blocks can cost upwards of millions of dollars this is a definite show of
factory involvement. Chrysler are protecting and promoting the icon that is the HEMI and they haven't put the
Wedge on the back burner either. A lot of Ford and GM people seem to think that without the HEMI, Chrysler
wouldn't be in the game. A lot of Ford and GM cars have gone back on the trailer after they met the 440, let alone
the HEMI. I've even seen Chevy Rats and big block Fords shut down handy, by a 340 smallblock in a Duster.
The 340 isn't called "the giant killer" for nothing.

Chrysler's new cast iron HEMI and Wedge blocks are even factory prepped to accomodate non Chrysler
transmissions for those who for example prefer to run a two speed PowerGlide which seems to be popular.

Cast iron HEMI street block part number, P5153862. Accepts all stock components with factory part numbers.
Cast iron HEMI RACE block part number P5153866. Same as Street, plus stiffened, strengthened block,
unmachined lifter bores and raised cam tunnel.


As for the 429 BOSS being the weapon that Ford wants everyone to think it is...uh,no.
I won't get into it here but suffice it to say the 429 "semi hemi" was a high rev NASCAR engine, not a drag motor.
As a matter of fact the initial batch (or should I say "botch") of 429's in the 69 Mustang had incorrect valve springs
and peaked at 4500 rpm instead of the intended 6000.
The quarter mile performance of the Ford Mustang Boss 429 was anemic at best, considering the message Ford was trying to send.
To put things in perspective, the 1969 Ford Mustang Boss 429 did the quarter in 14.0 seconds at 103 miles per hour.
A 1968 Oldsmobile Ram Rod with 350 Olds engine and M22 Muncie 4-speed did the quarter in 13.98 @ 103.

Posts: 143
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 11:31 am
Location: UK

Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by speedicusmaximus » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:50 pm

As a matter of interest, in the latest edition of Hot Rod magazine, there's an interview with Don Prudomme. In the feature he states that the SOHC 427 Ford would only last a weekend when raced on Nitro - it was designed for NASCAR, remember ? - and "the block would be all cracked".


PS: The feature - the quote is on the second page, attached to one of the photo's near the end of the feature. ... index.html

PPS: There's a follow up feature too - search Don Prudhomme on the HRM search.
Beep ! Beep !

Posts: 50
Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 9:16 pm
Location: Pineywoods of East Texas

Re: THE BOSS IS BACK; yeah right, another scam

Post by moparornocar » Sun May 25, 2014 4:05 pm

So, where are the Ford fans with their weak, make that simple minded, replies about how great Ford racing is. Truth is this simple; ignorance is the engine that drives Ford and some of the previous posts prove it.
'51 Hemi & 55 SBC, a class of their own

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