Hello all, new here, got a question

Discussion about the Hemi in general.

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overdriv
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Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:22 pm

I am wondering if anyone has had problems with Indy Cylinder head co. in Indianapolis, In? If this is a beloved vendor that contributes to this board, then I will withhold comment.
Last edited by overdriv on Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

392heminut
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Re: Hello all, new here, goa question

Post by 392heminut » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:30 pm

I've only dealt with them once. I couldn't get my hands on a carb intake for one of the new 5.7 hemis except for the Mopar Performance intakes at $1,000! Indy gave me a screaming deal on one they had on the shelf for $300!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:24 pm

The reason I asked is because a friend bought a 426 Hemi engine from them about 2 years ago and just got it running a few months back. It had valve train noise from day one, but it would come and go. To make a long story shorter they had installed the wrong lifters in the engine when they built it. The lifter pushrod cup/seat was to small for the pushrod. The push rods sat on top of the lifter cup instead of in it. The ticking noises would come and go. Could never pin down what was going on, till we pulled the intake and found the problem. In less than 400 miles it wore two lubes off the cam and was starting on a couple more.

A call to Indy Cylinder Head Co, telling them what we had found, they said it was possible the the wrong lifters were used in that engine. Seems they had changed suppliers and had gotten a batch of lifters like we found.

They said they would take care of everything but the engine would have to be returned to them, or we could do it ourselves and they would furnish parts. The owner decided to take it to them, 4hours one way.

They say they replaced all the bearings,cam and lifters. Ran it on the dyno for one hour.

The charge was just over $600 for oil, filter, and one hour of dyno time.

Now whether you think that is or is not reasonable is up to you.

392heminut
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by 392heminut » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:44 pm

Dyno time isn't cheap, but that being said in my opinion your friend shouldn't have had to pay for the oil and filter, let alone the dyno time!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

hemifred
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:42 pm

I am shocked they did anything for you at all. their customer service is the worst in the industry
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overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:47 am

To follow up on this thread, the engine which is a 477CID Indy Cylinder Head product has been back to them twice.

The first time, valve train noise. It lost lobes off the cam. He took it back to Indy Cylinder Head and they said they put new cam, lifters, a few pushrods, cam bearings, main and rod bearings. Ran it on the dyno to break the cam in and fully check it out. Charged him another $600.

Got it back and a short time later, valve train noise again. We pulled it down ourselves to see what had happened. Went to pull the cam from the block and the #4 cam bearing cam out with the cam. No evidence of bearing spinning in the bore. Back to Indy Cylinder Head again. They said there was nothing wrong with the cam bearing or block, but had no idea why it cam out, didn't seem to really care. Said they put in another new cam and lifters, not sure if they put bearings in this time, dyno time and charged the owner another $2100+.

Now here we are again with valve train noise. One intake pushrod has had the top cup mashed in, adjuster looks fine except for the wear marks from being to deep in the cup. All 8 exhaust push rods have the lower end that mates with the lifter badly beatup. It appears the push rod isn't going into the lifter cup, just riding about 1/16" down in the cup. All intake pushrods have no damage to the lower end except a wear pattern that looks like they do not seat into the lifter cup either.

I have some good pictures to post if anyone is interested. We sure would like to have some help on fixing this engine rather than unloading his wallet.

Edited to correct erroneous information.
Last edited by overdriv on Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:48 am

hemifred wrote:I am shocked they did anything for you at all. their customer service is the worst in the industry


They never did anything for free, you know like warranty.

speedicusmaximus
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by speedicusmaximus » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:15 am

Overdriv,

Post the pictures and let us all have a look.

Do you know who made/supplied the valvetrain ?

Was it more than one manufacturer ?

Are any of the parts maked with any names ?

You could try going direct to the suppliers and, if they'll take a look, see if the parts are set up correctly ?

Maybe they've reinstalled the same (bad batch) lifters as before ?

Hope you get some good luck !

Mike
Beep ! Beep !

hemifred
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:09 pm

overdriv wrote:
hemifred wrote:I am shocked they did anything for you at all. their customer service is the worst in the industry


They never did anything for free, you know like warranty.

like I previously said there's no one I know of who's more ignorant and could care less than Indy about a customer.
Any decent builder would have addressed your problems and try to find the cause. It's fairly evident to say #4 was too tight on the cam or too loose in the block. I favor the former. Was #4 cam journel grooved by chance ? Flat Lifters or rollers ? at what valve lash was it set ? any damage to the retainers where the underside of the rockers might have made contact ? Are valve springs bottoming out and stacking at full lift ?
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overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:45 pm

I'll try to answer all your questions;

Supposedly the cam manufacturer is Comp Cams. No markings that would indicate the manufacturer of either the push rods or the lifters.

Flat hydraulic cam/lifters.

There are no marks on anything that would lead one to believe the spring retainers are bottoming out on the guide/seal, or that the rocker arms are touching the retainer. There is no spring stack bind at full lift.

I never got the cam out of the block and never got a good look at the cam journal as I was unable to get the bearing off the journal, so yeah, I'd say the journal on the cam was grooved. I just put it back in place so they, Indy Cylinder Head could see for themselves.

It is my opinion that the push rods do not fit the lifters correctly. If you look at the right lifter, which is an intake, you can see a shiny wear ring where the push rod was running. None of them fit to the bottom of the lifter cup. I think the reason the exhaust push rods exhibit more damage is that they run at more of an angle to the lifter cup than do the intakes. Correct me if I am wrong. The exhaust lifter bores may be positioned different than the intakes, i don't remember.

The one intake push rod that you see with the adjuster cup mashed in and a bit egged, was the only one with damage to the top of the push rod.

It will not go back to them for repairs. We will fix it right this time ourselves. I know these Hemi engines are not junk, it's just the junk that was used to put this one together. This is my first Hemi experience, but not my first rodeo. Take a look at the pictures and see what you think guys. Advice on where we could get the correct parts would be helpful. Any advice is appreciated!

I appreciate all comments and help.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

BTW, I misspoke, they did furnish the cam and lifters the first time.

hemifred
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:46 pm

Flat hydraulic cam/lifters.

There are no marks on anything that would lead one to believe the spring retainers are bottoming out on the guide/seal, or that the rocker arms are touching the retainer. There is no spring stack bind at full lift.

ok

I never got the cam out of the block and never got a good look at the cam journal as I was unable to get the bearing off the journal, so yeah, I'd say the journal on the cam was grooved. I just put it back in place so they, Indy Cylinder Head could see for themselves.

old habits never die I always groove #4 but I use rollers

It is my opinion that the push rods do not fit the lifters correctly. If you look at the right lifter, which is an intake, you can see a shiny wear ring where the push rod was running. None of them fit to the bottom of the lifter cup. I think the reason the exhaust push rods exhibit more damage is that they run at more of an angle to the lifter cup than do the intakes. Correct me if I am wrong. The exhaust lifter bores may be positioned different than the intakes, i don't remember.

unless your pictures are not showing it I see a pushrod with oil holes in the cup side but not in the adjuster side? from what I can see there's something wrong there, Either you oil thru the pushrods or you don't . It looks like they are too long. The pushrod seat location is different in hydraulic and solid lifters in most
applications. For this reason pushrod length must be checked


The one intake push rod that you see with the adjuster cup mashed in and a bit egged, was the only one with damage to the top of the push rod. It appears again too long

It will not go back to them for repairs. We will fix it right this time ourselves. I know these Hemi engines are not junk, it's just the junk that was used to put this one together. This is my first Hemi experience, but not my first rodeo. Take a look at the pictures and see what you think guys. Advice on where we could get the correct parts would be helpful. Any advice is appreciated!

I appreciate all comments and help.

I will finish the reply after I close the shop
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NE57
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by NE57 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:03 am

Excuse a numbnuts newbie question but...if the cam was wiped, wouldn't it be good procedure to dismantle and reclean every component in the motor? You know since that metal went somewhere? Or did they do that and it was not mentioned?

Also, I'm looking at the top pic of the two lifters. the shapes of the inside of the cups look different, if the reflection is an accurrate gauge. Looks to me like the one on the right has a steeper crown to it. I was under the impression that a bottomed out contact is not good especially if there's a hole in the pushrod, that the wear ring is what you want to see. You actually get more surface area contact at a stiffer point of the ball end I would think. It looks like the ball ends are caving in. Hard to tell from 2 dimensional pics tho.

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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:25 am

NE57 wrote:Excuse a numbnuts newbie question but...if the cam was wiped, wouldn't it be good procedure to dismantle and reclean every component in the motor? You know since that metal went somewhere? Or did they do that and it was not mentioned?

Also, I'm looking at the top pic of the two lifters. the shapes of the inside of the cups look different, if the reflection is an accurrate gauge. Looks to me like the one on the right has a steeper crown to it. I was under the impression that a bottomed out contact is not good especially if there's a hole in the pushrod, that the wear ring is what you want to see. You actually get more surface area contact at a stiffer point of the ball end I would think. It looks like the ball ends are caving in. Hard to tell from 2 dimensional pics tho.
Correct, I did not mention that they supposedly took the engine down and cleaned it, I think I did mention new bearings, etc.

The picture of two lifters shows, on the right, an intake lifter which you can see where the push rod was seating, just barely below the top of the cup. Look at the intake push rods and see they were never seated fully into the cup. It is hard to see in the pictures.

The lifter on the left, exhaust, appears like it has a different cup. But actually it's cup has been beat up by the tip of the push rod, see exhaust push rods. With the push rods never seating fully into the lifter cup, and the greater angle in which the exhaust push rods run in relation to the operating plane of the lifter, it is my opinion the exhaust push rods spent a lot of time bouncing around on the lifter cup edge, thus making the ends of the push rods look as they do.

I also must make a correction to my story. The engine was only returned to Indy twice. It has been taken apart three times for valve train noise/damage but only returned two times. This all has taken place over a 2 1/2 year period, a bout with cancer and the resulting recovery. Not me but the owner, who is cancer free now. But anyway my memory of all the details I guess is not perfect. I apologize.

hemifred
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:37 pm

wow I spent too long replying and came back to an empty page.
without parts at hand a few guesses hgere

possibles the quick version: lifter/pushrod combo too long. they never pumped up the lifters enough or at all before installing. then set them and ran the motor for a very short time. from experience with them beiong liars I highly doubt it ever saw a dyno or even came close to it other than when it rolled past on a stand or in a crate. Once started the lifters pumped up valves might have hit pistons and cracked that lifter along with the pushrod damage. Would like to see tops on pistons for any markings and check valves for being bent.also what does that lifter bore now look like after the lifter broke ??

another possible oiling holes in lifters not inline with blocks passages causing bleedoff of any oil. not much or no oil coming thru #4 cam bearing for a variety of reasons. could be passage from main bearing blocked, cam bearing turned, and a few others. this statement due to fact of seeing blacked area on lifters, pushrods tips and cup.

bottom line this thing need a complete going over line bore and cam bore checked along with lifter bore angels and clearances. JUST TO START or it can all happen again
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overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:16 am

hemifred wrote:wow I spent too long replying and came back to an empty page.
without parts at hand a few guesses hgere

possibles the quick version: lifter/pushrod combo too long. they never pumped up the lifters enough or at all before installing. then set them and ran the motor for a very short time. from experience with them beiong liars I highly doubt it ever saw a dyno or even came close to it other than when it rolled past on a stand or in a crate. Once started the lifters pumped up valves might have hit pistons and cracked that lifter along with the pushrod damage. Would like to see tops on pistons for any markings and check valves for being bent.also what does that lifter bore now look like after the lifter broke ??

we only pulled two lifters. Neither was broken in any way. The exhaust lifter had the cup beatup from the push rod not fitting down into the cup correctly.

another possible oiling holes in lifters not inline with blocks passages causing bleedoff of any oil. not much or no oil coming thru #4 cam bearing for a variety of reasons. could be passage from main bearing blocked, cam bearing turned, and a few others. this statement due to fact of seeing blacked area on lifters, pushrods tips and cup.

From looking at the photos it's hard to really see, but there was no evidence of an oiling problem. Still does not explain why the cam bearing came out with the cam, but probably as you stated before, that bearing was probably tight on the cam from the git-go.

bottom line this thing need a complete going over line bore and cam bore checked along with lifter bore angels and clearances. JUST TO START or it can all happen again
I agree.

overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:29 am

To update this a bit. Owner took all lifters, push rods and rocker arms/shafts to Indy yesterday. They of course could not understand what was going on.

Then Russ, to there credit, told the owner that they would replace all push rods, supply new lifters and gaskets. He, Russ, thinks the original pushrods were NOT replaced as should have been from the first time when the wrong lifters were installed, (when engine was first built). But that means they missed the bad push rods the second time they had it to repair the valve train.

Anyway, we are going to install the new parts this week end and hope this will end the problems with this engine.

At least it won't cost him anything this time except our time and labor, and another trip to Indy.

#4 cam bearing will always be in the back of my mind though.

Nightmare.

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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:07 am

[quoteHe, Russ, thinks the original pushrods were NOT replaced as should have been from the first time when the wrong lifters were installed, (when engine was first built). But that means they missed the bad push rods the second time they had it to repair the valve train.

][/quote]

Didn'T I call that right !! but I am in a mild state of shock hearingthey are replacing and admitting any wrong doing. I still would have serious concerns about #4 bearing and would insist that they do all the work. That way if the problem reoccurs you can't get blamed. I feel the cam and bearings should be double checked. hoiw are you supposed to deal with a bearing that came loose from the block. He paid for a certain job that they admitted they screwed up therefore it's onthem to do the entire job over. Otherwise you might not catch any other visable problems that they would or should.
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:58 am

hemifred wrote:[quoteHe, Russ, thinks the original pushrods were NOT replaced as should have been from the first time when the wrong lifters were installed, (when engine was first built). But that means they missed the bad push rods the second time they had it to repair the valve train.

]
Didn'T I call that right !! but I am in a mild state of shock hearingthey are replacing and admitting any wrong doing. I still would have serious concerns about #4 bearing and would insist that they do all the work. That way if the problem reoccurs you can't get blamed. I feel the cam and bearings should be double checked. hoiw are you supposed to deal with a bearing that came loose from the block. He paid for a certain job that they admitted they screwed up therefore it's onthem to do the entire job over. Otherwise you might not catch any other visable problems that they would or should.[/quote]

Well, I agree with you it should be on them. But knowing their track record, it has been decided that they will not touch the engine again. We will do the work and make sure everything is as it should be. This may be our first hemi, but not the first rodeo.

As far as the #4 bearing, the owner is hoping they repaired it when they had it the second time. I can see why he doesn't want to remove the engine again. It is a show car, the paint under the hood, and under the car is every bit as perfect as the paint on the outside of the car. There is always a chance for a scratch or worse. If something happens again, then it will just have to come out and we'll deal with it then.

I'll post back when it's running. Thanks again for all help and advice.

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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:24 pm

if ever needed in the future there's a simple way to preserve all the pretty engine bay and protect it from scratches. Pull it out the bottom. we did quite a few just assemblying it on the K member ,especially with headers that would drive you nuts, and putting it back thru the bottom. usty know out the T bars,struts, upper ball joint it's veryu easy and neat,

please keep posting results
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hemifred
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:02 pm

came across some pics shows how it looks
Image

Image
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overdriv
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:18 pm

hemifred wrote:came across some pics shows how it looks
Image

Image
Never thought about doing it that way. Thanks for the tip!

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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:21 pm

it's much easier than it sounds or looks by a mile.
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by DavidBraley » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:53 pm

hemifred wrote:Image
WOW! That engine looks great. I especially like the custom header you made there. Very cool. :D

I hope someday to be able to make stuff like that. :wink:
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by hemifred » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:59 pm

sorry I didn't make those headers and it's not even my pictures :lol:
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Re: Hello all, new here, got a question

Post by overdriv » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:23 pm

Well the saga continues, or is it a nightmare. We readied to install the lifters and noticed the lifters have an oil hole in the push rod cup. Never thought much about but it kept bothering me, so we looked up the part numbers and sure enough they gave us hydraulic lifters for a 440 type engine that oils the top end through the push rod. Now I'm not savvy at all with hydraulic lifter that don't have the hole in the cup for top end oiling, so I don't know if that type lifter will work in the hemi or not. I'm thinking with out the oil moving up through the push rod that it might pump up and hold the valves open. But I don't know as I've never run into this before.

What do you guys think?

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