Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Discussion about the Hemi in general.

Moderator: scottm

Post Reply
dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by dan miller »

A buddy of mine has a beautiful "grandma" Dodge Dart Swinger that is "surplus to his needs". Cherry, low miles, six cyl, vinyl bench seat, very few options. Horrible green with a white vinyl roof - an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT street sleeper.

Yahoo, what a neat car for an engine swap. I have a bunch of 354 stuff, and am also thinking it would make a nice home for our 2010 aluminum head 389 cid Engine Masters Challenge engine. Set back as far as practical, maybe with a six speed, disc brakes all around, as large a tire as will comfortably fit the stock wheel wells. No a/c, power steering, radio, or any of that sissy stuff. lol

The early hemi is smaller and lighter than a late hemi, so I'd suspect that it would fit. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? I'm basically an "engine guy" - as opposed to a "car guy", and have very little knowledge of what Mopar pieces are interchangeable and/or will fit in the Dart.

Geez, like I really need another project. But this one seriously has my attention.

Thanks, Danny
dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by dan miller »

It's a '73 2 door hardtop (I'd prefer a sedan), and (oops) it's maroon with white vinyl top.

Danny
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by NE57 »

I'm doing something similarish. 392 into a 66 Dart granny-mobile. I haven't gotten to the nitty gritty of making it fit, I'm still trying to acccumulate engine parts.

As far as stuffing the beast in the bay, from what I've read and seen the 73 would be easier than the 66, your engine bay being a bit roomier. But some things are going to follow the same track. My big quandary is how to get around the steering box. I looked at rack and pinion swaps and I'm just not convinced that its a real-world friendly thing...bump steer could totally destroy the fun of actually driving the monster. I don't have the cash for tubular Kframe.

Even if I setback the motor enough to clear the box(assuming the sheet metal work is doable, Oh, did I tell you I have to learn welding? But not knowing something never stopped me before) I still have the problem of an extra 250-300 pounds on the front tires, making manual steering a bit of hard work. So could I put power steering in if I have enough setback? I dunno. On the other hand maybe skinny tires with high air pressure might get me by. And do you need a heater? Probably to be street legal you do. Another complication of motor setback.

The master cylinder has got to be relocated, there's an adapter available but I have never done it so I'm only going by what's been said. I'm not all that up on trannys so I dunno if your six speed is manual or auto, but if its manual, you'll have to deal with clutch linkage, much engine setback is likely to complicate that. And you either have to stuff the trans under the stock T-bar cross member or fabricate something new. I would measure the trans and the member and see what kind of change you'd need to make. I don't think you really want your trans 3 inches above the ground.

The more I explore about what's actually needed, Im coming to the conclusion that there's two main things to be concerned about. Make it fit. Make it work. By that I mean all the systems around the swap which get complicated. Do one thing and you might need to do something else as a consequence. So sometimes you might have to make compromise decisions.

I'll tell you, 8 months ago when I first bought the 392 I was HOT to do it, figured I could get it buttoned upin 6 months...HA! Now its more like 'it'll be done when its done'. One of my many problems is I have to do this alone. Or pay somebody to do certain portions. Either way, its going to take as long as it takes. If you've got extra, willing, knowledgeable hands around you it'll go much quicker and better.

Concept-wise I think your project is killer. It certainly won't be just another smallblock camaro. Granny's Hemi... I like it. Our cars might turn out to be twin sons by different mothers.

Anyway, best of luck with it and do keep us posted. I need all the help i can get!

And yeah..no sissy stuff.
DHEMI
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:01 am

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by DHEMI »

Check with Tom Waters,he might be able to help.
392heminut
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:16 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by 392heminut »

dan miller wrote:
The early hemi is smaller and lighter than a late hemi, so I'd suspect that it would fit.

Thanks, Danny
Danny, I don't know where you got your info, but the early hemi is not smaller than the late hemi, it's actually wider than the 426 hemi was. That's why there is so much issue with the steering box clearance. As for weight, if you use Hot Heads aluminum heads then the early hemi would probably be lighter than a cast iron headed 426, but with the stock cast iron heads it would weigh as much as a 426, if not a little more.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda
oldngood
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by oldngood »

dan miller wrote:It's a '73 2 door hardtop (I'd prefer a sedan), and (oops) it's maroon with white vinyl top.

Danny
I know an old-timer who did that exact swap, according to him it was a real challenge. He had to change K-frame and torsion bars- and remove power steering. He fabbed motor mount perches from steel plate, and welded them to the integral front fender framework. It was a real bear to do, but he finished it, the 392 had 2-4's on it. Then someone smashed into him at an intersection, T-boned the car- he pulled the engine and junked it ! What bad luck.

but it can be done, of course.

every time I pose this question to an old-timer, they roll their eyes a bit, and reply "go with the Dodge hemi, it'll fit better".
dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by dan miller »

Thanks all

I'm quite busy, and maybe this is just too much of a project. At least for the time being.

Thanks again, I appreciate the input.

Danny
oldngood
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by oldngood »

you are experiencing the foremost challenge of building and owning an early hemi engine- what to put it in. That's why we see so many of these engines running on home made stands on the garage floor, on "youtube". Go into youtube and type in "331 hemi" or "325 dodge hemi" or "392 hemi" and see what comes up- there's at least 15 engines running on stands, rather than in cars.

my first impression is, the early hemi is much easier to put into an early 1930-40's street rod, rather than a 1960-70's musclecar- the older rods have a huge engine bay, and the aftermarket for hemi swap mounts and kits for them is well established

having said that, years ago my friend and I were perusing a junkyard, and opened the hood on a 1953 Pontiac 2-door, and found a Chrysler hemi someone had swapped into it. I'll never forget that one.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by NE57 »

Well, this guy did it..

http://thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php ... 354#p11951

Early A's have tight engine bays. those pics give me hope!

From the guy's description it wasn't an insurmountable task. Just address each issue.
oldngood
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by oldngood »

I'm 47 years old, was a mechanic for 12 years, and had my own shop for 7 years- and did many engine swaps. No one said the swap is insurmountable, but is it worthwhile ? Firewall cut and moved back, trans tunnel completely cut out, new trans tunnel fabbed from scratch, no power steering, no power brakes, and much much more. The master cylinder may have been moved, meaning custom brake pedal linkage- when the question was asked, there was no reply, then the thread died off. That is a first-rate swap, but I can tell you from experience, it's obviously a very high dollar deal. For what this would cost, even doing the work yourself, you could just go out and just buy a hot rod with an early hemi already in it running, and be driving it around that day. Heavy cars with that level of HP actually need power brakes- otherwise they don't stop and are dangerous- ask me how I know. From the original thread, below:

JUST GIVE YOU AN UPDATE ON THE 65 VALIANT/ 354 HEMI PROJECT, WE JUST PULLED THE MOTOR OUT LAST WEEKEND AFTER A COUPLE MONTHS OF STUFFING IT IN THE VALIANT, NOW WE JUST HAVE TO FINISH PAINTING AND FITTING ALL THE SMALL DETAILS. WE DID MAINTAIN THE STOCK INNER FENDER WELLS AND STOCK FRONT SUSPENSION WITH THE STEERING BOX AND DRAG LINK. IT IS TIGHT BUT WILL WORK, THE EXHAUST IS ALL CUSTOM, UTILIZING THE STOCK HEMI EXHAUST MANIFOLDS. FABRICATED OUR OWN ENGINE MOUNTS TO THE ORIGINAL K-FRAME, WE ARE RUNNING A TH350 CHEVY TRANS WITH AN ADAPTER FROM HOT HEADS. THE FIREWALL WAS RELOACTED BACK 1 1/2 " FOR BELL HOUSING CLEARANCE THUS THE ORIGINAL TRANS TUNNEL HAD TO BE COMPLETELY REMOVED DUE TO NOT ENOUGH CLEARANCE AND A NEW ONE MADE. IT WAS ALOT FITTING AND FABRICATING SOME CUSTOM STUFF BUT WE LOOK TO HAVE IT ON THE ROAD THIS SUMMER.


these mods were also performed before he even attempted the engine swap:

has been upgraded with a '74 Dart front disc brake set-up, sub-frame connecters, heavy duty cross member, six point roll bar, 18.5 inch Mickey Thompsons, on polished Cragar Super Tricks, with a narrowed 9-inch Ford.



these questions were asked, to which there was no reply:

How did you relocate the master cylinder? I think mine has to come over at least 4 inches.
Were you able to retain the stock heater and vents?
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Dart Swinger, hemi swap

Post by NE57 »

>but is it worthwhile ?

You betcha, to me anyway.

>you could just go out and just buy a hot rod with an early hemi already in it running

That's not the point though, for me

>these questions were asked, to which there was no reply:

yeah, that was me, four or five years later.

>obviously a very high dollar deal.

Shhhhhh, not so loud, the wife might hear

Worth it???? I make custom jewelry, from scratch, to order. People pay me to make their dream reality. More times than I can count people come in with an old beat up diamond or whatever and want something special made out of it. Sooner or later the question gets asked, "is it worth it?" This is my usual reply, "Right now this thing is ugly and you can't wear it, probably can't sell it for much, but you nevertheless love it. Is it worthwhile TO YOU to spend $XXXX to be able to wear it proudly, and enjoy the sentimental impact it apparently has on you? I think only you can answer that".

So for me, this car is going to be my custom jewelry. I owe it to myself, I've been pandering to other peoples' ideas for thirty years. Buying an off the shelf hemi car will not satisfy me. 'I' have to do it. "Doing it' is the point. When its done it'll have my hallmark on it(good or bad), and I get to have greasy fingernails in the meantime, what could be better than that? If I just go out and buy one, all that proves is that I could buy one. And I realize that for many people 'owning a hemi car' might be the right goal. But because I'm creative and hopefully resourceful 'building the hemi car', the process, THAT is the point for me.

But now I rrealize maybe I'm hijacking the thread a little bit, sorry Dan. I guess my input should be, seperate fleeting urge from enduring vision and proceed with care. If you really want to go thru the whole deal of doing it then go for it.
Post Reply