The 426 HEMI has 500 HP ???

[Dodge Boy]

LOL, I agree with all In many ways. Stock, the Wedge was awesome, and in any apples to apples stock race comparison would smoke and model, of any make in the 60s. But when modded, the Hemi was just about untouchable. (Dodge/Plmouth never had a Europeaon car with their engine in it to compare to the Cobra. (So that wouldn't be apples to apples). Mopar muscle cars of much larger girth would often surprise many Cobra and vett owners. If the weights were the same fords snake and chevys vett wouldnt have a prayer.


(but what about Hurst)
?

Good point. When modified the HEMI was amazing, (though it was great from the factory). Thats true about the Cobra and Vette. I think we stood up to them pretty well even with our car models. But it doesn't matter, I would still take any Mopar over the Cobra or Vette any day of the week. I don't see the big deal with the Vette anyway. I hear it was america's favorite car on this TV show I was witching. As far as the Modern Vette goes I would take a Viper over it too.

That new Ford GT is pretty quick though. It will give the Viper a run for its money.

[MG42pillbox]

The Ford GT has to first give itself a run for its own money with a cost of 140+K.

[Dodge Boy]

The Ford GT has to first give itself a run for its own money with a cost of 140+K.

LOL. Ya that may scare away buyers, when you can get the same performance in the Viper for 10-15 thousand $ less. The GT doesn't scare me. Dodge will just give the Viper a boost for the 2005 year if the GT starts to threaten its "american supercar status". Now that Chrysler has got the HEMI back, and in fine form, they can beef it up and drop it into a Viper. I thinks its safe to say the horsepower wars are back again! This is good news for Dodge, HP and performance is thier specialty.

[MG42pillbox]

The Ford GT has to first give itself a run for its own money with a cost of 140+K.

LOL. Ya that may scare away buyers, when you can get the same performance in the Viper for 10-15 thousand $ less. The GT doesn't scare me. Dodge will just give the Viper a boost for the 2005 year if the GT starts to threaten its "american supercar status". Now that Chrysler has got the HEMI back, and in fine form, they can beef it up and drop it into a Viper. I thinks its safe to say the horsepower wars are back again! This is good news for Dodge, HP and performance is thier specialty.

Initial #s, Even with a higher gear ratio, more weight, and obviously much longer drive train, still putt the Viper down the 1/4 mile faster.

If the GT Cant even significantly beat it there..... Pathetic.

[Dodge Boy]

The Ford GT has to first give itself a run for its own money with a cost of 140+K.

LOL. Ya that may scare away buyers, when you can get the same performance in the Viper for 10-15 thousand $ less. The GT doesn't scare me. Dodge will just give the Viper a boost for the 2005 year if the GT starts to threaten its "american supercar status". Now that Chrysler has got the HEMI back, and in fine form, they can beef it up and drop it into a Viper. I thinks its safe to say the horsepower wars are back again! This is good news for Dodge, HP and performance is thier specialty.

Initial #s, Even with a higher gear ratio, more weight, and obviously much longer drive train, still putt the Viper down the 1/4 mile faster.

If the GT Cant even significantly beat it there..... Pathetic.

What can I say man its Ford. They arn't the greatest for making performance cars. Thier sports car up until the GT was the Mustang. Try comparing that to a Viper or Vette. They won't stand a chance.

A guy at my grandfather's dealership did drive the new Ram SRT-10 and he said it was amazing. He said he would take it over a Viper! We were joking with each other about the new Ford Lightning thats comming out to conquer the Ram. It has 500 HP so it may just match up to the Ram. Its funny when I'me reading through my Ram magazine and under the options list I see 500 Hp Viper V-10, it just looks out of place for a truck to have that. Leave it to Dodge to make the fastest production pickup in automotive history. Dodge lives for performance and sheer power.

[ACE 3]

In the 60s the 426 Hemi was dyno tested at 433 horsepower.

GOOD LORD

[macx]

First, several posts up in this thread somebody refers to
the Ford 427 as having canted valves. Nope, pure inline
wedge with rocker shafts.

About the 440 vs Hemi on the street, it depended on the
state of tune. Many early hemi's were poorly tuned, they
were very touchy and required lots of TLC (points, plugs,
valves set) or they wouldn't run anywhere near their
potential. I know, I had one. I whipped up on several
other cars that regularly beat other street hemi's, but I
kept mine always in top tune. Learned points and setting
valves from a good friend of mine.

My hemi was an early 66 - bought it new in Dec 65 for $3600
- GOD I wish I still had it with a 4 speed and 3:54's in a
Belvedere II. Ran it stock for a couple years before
turning it into a weekend only toy. Then, in 70, I got a
Challenger RT/SE 440 6 pack 4 speed with 4:10's when
the 6 pack was all the rage. It did have lots of torque,
but once out of the hole and a little way up into the rpms
and into 2nd and up gears, the hemi would absolutely run
and hide from it. WAY more "top end charge". BUT only
with a very sharp tune job.

[macx]

A hot rod magazine article about a pure stock 426 street
hemi that Dick Landy built and dyno'd was similar in
results to several others I read in the later 60's.

485 hp and 480 (?) torque. Other tests came out
from 465 or 470 hp to very near the 500 mark.

[360MoparRacer]

Just to answer the question the one who started this heated topic. The reason most/if not all manufactours rated there horse power lower/higher was for a simple reason. I asked my friend this and we were very confused as to why anyone like Chevy (my friend) and Mopar (me) would want to say there engines had less horse power then they were rated. Its a simple reason. INSURANCE, you have to remember back then these cars were at most 6K for even Hemi cars. That was a lot! And to make these cars more affordable they rated/lied to the insurance and government so the insurance would be lower and more affordable, the more horsepower you have the more the insurance will be. Even today car companies will do that but now its less common due to the fact that there are emmision standereds and for other reasons. And the truth is yes 426 Hemi's 68-71 did have between 465-550 give or take ive seen dyno's for all. My friend has a original 68 Hemi, in his 68 dodge charger r/t. Around 585 but thats with a bore of .30 but everything in it is stock from the factory. But before that engine was made stock again. It ran 8.33 1/4 mile no supercharger/turbocharger, all engine.

[DELTUFFO]

That's quite a machine, you are very lucky to have such an amazing friend.

Does he let you sit on his lap and drive it?


Chris Deltufo

[Don Nicklason]

You Hemi Freaks almost kill me with laughter ! Don't get me wrong now, enjoy the heated debate. Also some of you have read up & have experience about what your writing about. I'm not going to say you are wrong. The one post that referenced Elephant Motor made me laugh too, Yes it had the power of an Elephant, but you left out the part that it weighed as much as one.
Now before you get a dose of Red Butt, this was pre-aluminum "parts", like as in all cast iron that was a big weight disadvantage to Hemi powered "Stuff".
Have you ever noticed how big, I really mean how small & light weight the drivers of winning cars of all types & classes of are ? Wow, I think the HP to weight ratio edge my be a leedle mite better ?
I read almost all of the posts, there was a distinct lack of mention of what was, repeat, WAS a terrifying bad to the bone force.
And that was the 1971 or 72, (I'm not a big fan), Pontiac GTO/Ventura 421SD. Reason, it tore up everything else so bad RIGHT OFF THE SHOW ROOM FLOOR, NO TUNING, NO WRENCHING, just drive it out to what ever strip.
Now, you think you are MOPAR collectors ? There is a guy in Arizona that has over 400 hundred Pontiacs, yeah, four hundred.
He has a web sight, I read his humongus essay, I'll wager that there isn't anything he dosent know about a Pontiac & almost everything about Chevy's.
In his essay,(about 10 pages), he wrote that the GM Brass killed the 421SD production because the Chevy guys were wanting to trade in for a Pontiac.
You can belive it or not, you decide !

[hemipanter]

Yes it had the power of an Elephant, but you left out the part that it weighed as much as one.
Now before you get a dose of Red Butt, this was pre-aluminum "parts", like as in all cast iron that was a big weight disadvantage to Hemi powered "Stuff".

Just for a note, this is what my engine weights like...
Shortblock
Block............255
Main caps........15
Crankchaft ......81,4
Bearings...........1,36
Flywheel.........14,1
Damper..........11
Rods...............14,96
Piston m bult....17,5
Camchaft.........11
Lifters...............4,84
Water pump......6,6
Pulleys..............2,2
Camtrans..........5,5
Pushrods...........2,64
Oil pump...........6,16
Oilpan.............11,44
Sum..............460,7
Heads
Heads.............59,4
Rockers v st....27,5
Head bolts .......6,6
Valves.............5,94
Springs.............4,4
Valvecovers.....21,12
Int manifold.....35,2, including injection.
Trottle plen......10,34
Sum................170,5
Engine weight total.....631,2

We could shave this of with an aluminium block to 508 pound.
Not too bad anyway.
For a total car weight of 2500p, this will be on the list. Its just the pricing...
Goran Malmberg

[Don Nicklason]

Yes it had the power of an Elephant, but you left out the part that it weighed as much as one.
Now before you get a dose of Red Butt, this was pre-aluminum "parts", like as in all cast iron that was a big weight disadvantage to Hemi powered "Stuff".
Wow! You have the weights nailed down !
What is that 2,500 lb, rig you're running that motor in ?

No question about HP to Weight Ratio there.
Just for a note, this is what my engine weights like...
Shortblock
Block............255
Main caps........15
Crankchaft ......81,4
Bearings...........1,36
Flywheel.........14,1
Damper..........11
Rods...............14,96
Piston m bult....17,5
Camchaft.........11
Lifters...............4,84
Water pump......6,6
Pulleys..............2,2
Camtrans..........5,5
Pushrods...........2,64
Oil pump...........6,16
Oilpan.............11,44
Sum..............460,7
Heads
Heads.............59,4
Rockers v st....27,5
Head bolts .......6,6
Valves.............5,94
Springs.............4,4
Valvecovers.....21,12
Int manifold.....35,2, including injection.
Trottle plen......10,34
Sum................170,5
Engine weight total.....631,2

We could shave this of with an aluminium block to 508 pound.
Not too bad anyway.
For a total car weight of 2500p, this will be on the list. Its just the pricing...
Goran Malmberg

[383Dart]

My apologies on the canted 427, i've touched so many big block fords they are starting to run together it was the 385 series motors that had canted valves. But that really just goes to show my argument about the effectiveness of a straight wedge head. However, i regret to say, it doesn't explain why the 426 wedge couldn't run with the 427 on the race track. I suppose it might have to do with the possibility of the flatter runners in the frod FE head i don't know someone tell me. Onto the comment about the hemi's being poor states of tune from the factory. All Chryser big block were to the best of my knoweledge. I saw in an interview with Mr. Norm the 383 4V engines dyno tested as low 290 horsepower but with a little tuning they hit 330 horsepower on the nose everytime, I honestly feel that the 440 six pack was shipped in a terrible state of tune, i've seen rough estimates on the 440+6 as high as an actual output of 430 horsepower. Wishful thinking? Maybe but i could find atleast one article in a Mopar Muscle Magazine (yes i am a bench racer there are no drag tracks where i live sorry guys) that features a bone stock Six pack super bee, automatic with 4.10's the only thing not being factory are the flowmaster mufflers however that won't make enough of a difference to have this big car running as fast as a 12.45 on repop bia ply tires. Set of slicks and a great driver i feel this car could probably run a 12 flat maybe even a high 11. All speculation on my part ofcourse but there is no denying the ability of a chrysler wedge motor. Its pretty easy to get hemi performance out of one for less than half the price. And on another note to the above subjects yes the 421SD was a truly BA motor. But don't forge tthat 400 tri power in the early 442s that thing was bad i've ridden in one and it scared me. Those have been run as fast a 13 flat bone stock which isn't bad for such a small cube motor, ofcourse that was with a 4.30 cogged rear. The brand X GM cars would have handed chevy there own rearend had they been allowed to grow. Chevy is the real joke guys not Ford. There is nothign wrong with a Ford big block. They're tough, reliable and make awesome power even in bone stock trim. And i dont' care what magazine drivers test them at, Magazines are so bias towards Chevy's its not even funny.

[Don Nicklason]

Hot Rod Mag. Jan. 1986 on the cover- to Page 74 Article----
The Two Quickest Production Cars Ever.
The 1964 Plymouth Envoy 426 Hemi (Hayden Proffitt) and 1964 Ford Fairlane 427 Thunderbolt (Gas Ronda/Russ Davis)
Both ended up clocking low 10's at over 130 mph.
The Thunderbolt had 13.3 to 1 CR the Hemi had two versions, 11 to 1 & 12.5 to 1 CR.
Keeping this short, there's alot more detail neat info.
383's post was right, the first off the shelf Hemi's were slop tuned, Hayden fixed that problem.

[fasttoys]

With the two cars mentioned the term "production" is a rather "loose" definition. In this case the 68 Hemi Dart and Barracuda should also be included. (a bit bias as I have a B029)

Previously in this thread it was mentioned that tuning made a difference. That is right on especially back in the 60's. I remember talking to Norm K. (Mr. Norm) back in 68 asking him why he always included a "super tune" with the Mr. Norm cars. He said the factory tune was poor. With the "super tune" they would see 30-50+ HP gains which on the street made a huge difference.

The other main factor was the driver. Back then the tires were poor, conditions always varied (even on the strip) and driver skill was all over the place. A good driver would make a huge difference.

As some one else said earlier "you like what you like". If you race the weight to HP ratio's used in class setting even things up and the win or loose is totally in your setup and driver. I would point out however that from the 60's up a car with a Hemi in any given class always had to carry more weight than a non Hemi car. Tells you something.

[Don Nicklason]

Sorry but the Article in Jan. 1986 Hot Rod is a recap of these two cars, didn't go into any other year or make. But yes, as the article stated, & Proffitt & others argued, the fact that the Fairlanes were sent out, modified, shipped back to be Ford Plant delivered was pretty damn loose, no question.

[383Dart]

True, but the BO29 and LO23 cars were modified by Hurst Campbell Enterprises and then shipped back to the Chrysler plant for distribution.

[fasttoys]

You ordered it and signed all the releases at a authorized dealer. You actually had to pick up the Barracuda at the Hurst Campbell facility. It was quite a zoo when I picked ours up in 68. (A story in itself, perhaps for a different thread.) If I recall, the bottom line was that the racing associations required the manufacturer that a minimum of 50 to be build.

[383Dart]

fasttoys you should certainly start that thread, i love stories like that.

[383Dart]

fasttoys you should certainly start that thread, i love stories like that.

[Don Nicklason]

To all you kids out there-- I was overhaul'in ,lovingly referred to as, "Motors" before the early Hemi came out. If you had subscriptions to Hot Rod, Motor Trend, Car & Driver, Circle Track & bought some others off the shelf over the years & claim/prove that I have bought about 74 cars since 1949, worked in an automotive machine shop, raced at two different drag strips, & one 1/4 round track, what I don't know, I quote someone elses experience.
I personally talked to a guy up/out here in Ore. at a show & shine with about 600 cars that has a 63 Galaxie Rag Top with a 427 in it. He has seven 427 motors, one bilt to the hilt, non fan or pump helped. For the kids, thats just carbs, no turbo or blower. Dyno tested @ 750 H.P.
If you take time out from reading MOPAR Books you will find others that have a wealth of info in them.
All of the other car camps have done exhaustive, exstensive & espensive R&D on their motors & they kept getting better & better.
The mention of signing a waiver at MOPAR, FOMOCO did the same.
Did you also know those 64s' were a total strip, no window winders, no heater, no padding under the rubber floor mats, added use of plastic, aluminum, cheap low weight seats, even no dash pads.

[DPelleti]

There is a lot of good information in this thread, but a lot of misinformation too. I am a mopar fan (see sig), but I also consider myself a musclecar fan. It seems that a few people have blinders on.

A few comments;

- Street Hemi's may all have been rated at 425hp, but there were changes made year to year, the most important being the change from solid to hydraulic lifters in an attempt to help those that were less than adept at tuning thier cars. For these reasons, the true hp of the 426 street likely varied somewhat depending on which year you are talking about.

- A ZL-1 is the same engine as an L-88 except with an iron block. An LS-7 was the same basic engine displacing 454ci, instead of 427ci. Anyone with a stock hemi that thinks they can walk away from an L-88, is delusional. Don't underestimate them.

- All camps, Ford, GM and Mopar had some good engine designs.

Here's a little list I have reproduced for your viewing pleasure;

TOP 10 Musclecar Engines - Musclecar Magazine

#1 427 L-88: rated 430hp, actual 480hp
#2 426 Street Hemi: rated 425hp, actual 470hp
#3 454 LS-6: rated 450hp, actual 450hp
#4 455 W-30: rated 370hp, actual 440hp
#5 427 L-71: rated 435hp, actual 435hp
#6 440 6 Pack: rated 390hp, actual 430hp
#7 Ford 427 dual quad: rated 425hp, actual 425hp
#8 Buick 455 Stage I: rated 360hp, actual 420hp
#8 Boss 429: rated 375 hp, actual 420hp
#9 440 Magnum: rated 375hp, actual 410hp
#9 428CJ: rated 335hp, actual 410hp
#9 Pontiac 400 RA: rated 366hp, actual 410 hp
#10 396 L-78, rated 375hp, actual 400hp

Before you attempt to hunt me down, please be advised that I didn't create this list. You can argue forever about the information contained in the list, and I would never presume to suggest that it is 100% accurate; but I believe it is close.

Also keep in mind these results are bone stock, and don't include several factory race cars. In addition, I would suggest that there are some engines missing from the list, such as the 426 Max Wedge.

Many of these engines were really designed as race engines and as such were detuned for street use. These engines really "came alive" with a few modifications that racers were likely to perform such as headers, open exhaust and perhaps a cam change. Examples of such engines were the 426 Hemi, 427 L-88 and ZL-1 (which were said to produce 560hp with headers) and the Boss 429. On the flip side, are several engines that made good power in stock form, but were much closer to "the top of thier game" such engines were the Olds W-30, Buick 455 Stage I and even the 440 Six Pack. These engines were impressive in stock form and although they could be modified to produce more power, didn't have as much untapped potential as the first group of engines I mentioned.

In closing, for those that haven't seen this before, here's the top 10 of the 50 Fastest Muscle Cars (as per Musclecarclub.com)

#1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118
#2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112
#3 1969 Roadrunner 440 6bbl 12.91@111.8
#4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12
#5 1970 Chevelle LS-6 13.12@107.01
#6 1969 Camaro ZL-1 13.16@110.21
#7 1968 Corvette L-71 13.30@108
#8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5
#9 1970 Buick 455 Stage I 13.38@105.5
#10 1968 Corvette L-72 13.41@109.5

These results are from road tests performed back in the day.

I hope none of you think I'm putting down the 426 Hemi, because I truly believe that it is an incredible engine that defined the musclecar era. I just think you have to have an open mind and give the other manufacturers some credit as well.

Cheers,
Dave

[hemipanter]

Things easely gets mixed together. Its nice to have the engine of dreams elevated to a status of beeing the best. But despite some variation in designe, they are all able to deliver a fair amount of HP. The 440 six pack is matcing the Hemi power by adding a few cui. So, cui is a great power factor. I like the Hemi from a layout standpoint. It has good potential right out as a production engine. And it stands out from all other engines which
appeals to me, even if this is not a performace standpoint.

I like the hemispherical combustion chamber with the opportunity of beeing able to use two pluggs in a great location to each other. This makes for a short flame travel and a great burning chamber. But of course, there are drawbacks. Lack off quench areas-swirl, and large volume, is some of them.

If we look at model-airplane engines of the very best, that has no restrictions whatsoever concerning combustion chamber designe we will finde hemisperical burning chambers and 360 deg quecnch areas and a flat top piston. As they dont have valves, they are not stuck to valves dictating the quench shape. Which is the case for any four stroke engine.

Goran Malmberg

[Don Nicklason]

Hey; love all the different opinions & facts posted. That's how we learn.
Yeh! The 440 is a good motor, recently overhauled 76 motor home I bought & put duals exhaust on it, she's stout.
But it's 14 CI bigger than a 426 & won't match the 426 Hemi.
Would love to have Bill Gates's money. Would round up all those muscle cars quoted.
Put the same butt gear & tires on them. Weight them the same including the driver & run them on the same track. And see what we can see ? ? ?
How's that for a Dream ?
Don