The 426 HEMI has 500 HP ???

Discussion about the Hemi in general.

Moderator: scottm

DPelleti
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: BC

Re: Easily Mixed Up

Post by DPelleti »

Don Nicklason wrote:Hey; love all the different opinions & facts posted. That's how we learn.
Yeh! The 440 is a good motor, recently overhauled 76 motor home I bought & put duals exhaust on it, she's stout.
But it's 14 CI bigger than a 426 & won't match the 426 Hemi.
Would love to have Bill Gates's money. Would round up all those muscle cars quoted.
Put the same butt gear & tires on them. Weight them the same including the driver & run them on the same track. And see what we can see ? ? ?
How's that for a Dream ?
Don
I agree. The "Fastest" list is really no more than a novelty. For instance the '69 440-6 'runner shouldn't have been able to beat the '70 Hemi 'runner (both with 4.10's, similar weight and tires), but it did post a faster time. How? Because they were different drivers, different tracks, temp, elevation, humidity, etc. etc. The 12.91 et was made by a professional driver (Ronnie Sox) on a finely tuned six pack. This DOESN'T mean a 440 6 pack has more power than a 426 Hemi, but it does serve to illustrate my point: don't underestimate some of the other musclecar engines out there. Along the same lines, the ZL-1 Camaro SHOULD have easily beat the L-72 'vette, but it didn't.

The 426 Hemi makes more power than a 440-6 pack in stock form and the potential is even more disparate. The other point I was making is that there were some engines that could give a street hemi strong competition. The L-88/ZL-1 was one of the few that could and I stand by that statement. Any of you Hemi owners that find yourself next to an L-88 'vette at a stop light, best take it seriously! LOL.
(Not about to happen, these days! :cry: )

I hear ya about the collection - If'n I had Gates' cash, I'd be doing the exact same thing you suggested. Unfortunately, I don't appear to be in imminent danger of becoming a billionaire, so I guess I'll have to be happy with my 6 Pack Bee.

Cheers,
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
DPelleti
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: BC

Re: 426 Hemi v/s Ford

Post by DPelleti »

Don Nicklason wrote:You Hemi Freaks almost kill me with laughter ! Don't get me wrong now, enjoy the heated debate. Also some of you have read up & have experience about what your writing about. I'm not going to say you are wrong. The one post that referenced Elephant Motor made me laugh too, Yes it had the power of an Elephant, but you left out the part that it weighed as much as one.
Now before you get a dose of Red Butt, this was pre-aluminum "parts", like as in all cast iron that was a big weight disadvantage to Hemi powered "Stuff".
Have you ever noticed how big, I really mean how small & light weight the drivers of winning cars of all types & classes of are ? Wow, I think the HP to weight ratio edge my be a leedle mite better ?
I read almost all of the posts, there was a distinct lack of mention of what was, repeat, WAS a terrifying bad to the bone force.
And that was the 1971 or 72, (I'm not a big fan), Pontiac GTO/Ventura 421SD. Reason, it tore up everything else so bad RIGHT OFF THE SHOW ROOM FLOOR, NO TUNING, NO WRENCHING, just drive it out to what ever strip.
Now, you think you are MOPAR collectors ? There is a guy in Arizona that has over 400 hundred Pontiacs, yeah, four hundred.
He has a web sight, I read his humongus essay, I'll wager that there isn't anything he dosent know about a Pontiac & almost everything about Chevy's.
In his essay,(about 10 pages), he wrote that the GM Brass killed the 421SD production because the Chevy guys were wanting to trade in for a Pontiac.
You can belive it or not, you decide !
The reason nobody mentioned the "1971 - 1972 Pontiac GTO/Ventura 421SD" is because there is no such thing. The 421SD was discontinued in 1964 and was never available in any mid-size car (such as a GTO). It was replaced by the 428 and then the 455 (only available in full size cars until 1970) and the 389 was replaced by the 400 in the GTO lineup.
A 1971 or 1972 Pontiac GTO is/was a nice car, but the 455HO was overshadowed by the earlier 400ci RAIII and RAIV engines. In fact the 455HO didn't produce as much power as a chevy LS-6, Olds 455 W-30 or Buick's 455 Stage I. In addition the GTO was a GTO/Lemans not a GTO/Ventura up until 1974.
The only Pontiac to wear the Super Duty nameplate after the old 421SD Catalinas was the 1973 - 1974 455 Super Duty Trans Ams. These cars performed very well considering the increased emmissions controls and lower compression and demonstrated to many the potential of the Pontiac 455.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, so I hope my post isn't viewed in that light. It's obvious that you have a huge amount of experience. I just can't leave incorrect information uncorrected. I've been a collector of various musclecars over the last 20 years or so.

Oh, I almost forgot; Although there were no factory 421 GTO's ever built, Royal Bobcat (a dealer) installed two 421's in two 1964 GTO's for a magazine road test vs. a Ferrari GTO. The cars were passed off as 389 cars and the truth didn't come out for many years.

Cheers,
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
Don Nicklason
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:49 am
Location: Roseburg, OR

426 500 HP

Post by Don Nicklason »

Hey your info on the 412SD /Pontiac was correct. I was way off on the year model, (not a Pontiac Guy), I called my Ace Pontiac ex-Pontiac mechanic Friend in Florida, he worked on one or two of them up in Ohio.
He read me some more little known info off his "Stuff".
That was a 63 Catalina, they did major mods to that model.
Some aluminum front end sheet metal, aluminum bell housing, tail shaft, rear end housing, single aluminum muffler & tail pipe, with cut outs on the head pipes, all for weight reduction. Plastic side windows & some other left out hardware. And, (from his info also), the Pontiac Boys had one more trick up their sleeves that the Mopar & Ford guys didn't know about.
They cut out lightening holes in the frame. Hence the name Royal Swiss Cheese name came about for them.
They didn't get 50 of them sold to the General Show Room Public & NHRA & NASCAR outlawed them. They did run some in FX Class.
I don't know anymore than that !
Don
55 Red Ram Powered 30 A Roadster
DPelleti
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: BC

Post by DPelleti »

Don,
Those lightweight 421SD Catalinas were incredible cars. Many people don't realize that GM issued a "no more racing" edict in late '63 and these cars (along with the lightweight 409 and 427 powered Impalas) represented GM's last foray into NHRA factory racing. Ford and Mopar would continue do duke it out for the next several years.
The 421SD was a great engine along the lines of the 409 425hp Chevy and 426 Max Wedge cars.

Good chatting with you,
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
OldIron
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 10:50 am

Post by OldIron »

Like Don I'm generally an automotive fanatic. I used to be nothing but a Mopar fan until I realized that I wasn't always getting all the facts so I looked for myself. Every manufacturer has produced some good stuff and some bad stuff. I'm not a Hemi basher at all but hate fanatical comments. I'm currently driving a Ford and have family that are "Ford fanatics" and I get just as upset over their remarks towards other makes.

IMHO the most efficient engine/cylinder head is "Pentroof" designs with multi-valves. Hemi's are still used in top fuel dragsters where sheer combustion chamber volume is the main key ingredient for a forced induction environment. More in - more out.

Edit: Hemi's were no doubt the most efficient when multi-valve engines were mostly unheard of (didn't want to sound one sided and compare apples 'old' to oranges 'new')

Not meaning to argue about anything, I just like to research before opening my mouth.

Nice website btw
OldIron
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 10:50 am

Post by OldIron »

I read an article on those light weight Catalina's somewhere years ago and don't even remember what mag it was in =(. They were impressive.
OldIron
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 10:50 am

Post by OldIron »

I found a little more info on Ford big blocks. Ford has produces some awesome engines but they usually don't produce large numbers of stuff which is a shame. Most people (myself included) was unaware of of most of their stuff. Their multi-valve Indy engines are what I've been researching lately. 475hp out of the little 3.0L was pretty nice for 1970.

also noticed that Lotus used a Ford 302 small block with 480hp
http://www.utahlotusmuseum.com/id307.htm <website.


The 427:
Ford's best high performance engine was the 427. This engine
was THE best when it came to Ford power. With the high-
performance and racing applications of the 427, there were
many changes to the heads during production. It came in 5
different levels of engine tune. This Engine was produced from
1963 until 1968 in passenger vehicles. Not all 427's were put in
passenger vehicles. Some 427's such as the Tunnel Port and
SOHC were only offered as crate or accessory packages and
were never put in a production vehicle.
Three of these levels of tune are referred to a riser. Which In
general terms, a riser is simply the vertical distance from one
level to the next. The Medium-Riser has a 2-3-inch higher rise at
the carburetor mounting pad than the Low-Riser. The High-
Riser has an even steeper rise, 2-3-inch more than the Medium-
Riser. So the riser simply refers to the angle of the intake port in
relation to the head.
The first is the Low-Riser or L-R. The L-R was offered in late
1963 and 1964 In 1968 the L-R was again offered.


The 427 L-R
was given cast combustion chambers P.I. style rods, a high
nodular cast iron crankshaft, and with the exception of 1968, a
solid cam and adjustable rocker arms. The intake port
dimensions were 2.34-inch by 1.28-inch with 2.08-inch intake
and 1.60-inch exhaust valves. The L-R head is very similar to
the 428 Cobra Jet head with only small variations. Such as
exhaust bolt hole patterns.
The next was the High Riser or H-R. The H-R was only offered
for 1963 1/2 and 1964. The [H-R] was the head with the tallest
intake port opening, 2.78 inches tall compared to 2.06 on the
Medium-Riser and 2.34 on the Low-Riser and CJ. All cars that
received this engine had to have a special tear-drop hood scoop
to clear the carburetors. The tear drop hood scoop also aided in
engine compartment ventilation instead of feeding air for the
engine. This engine received machined combustion chambers,
that would help prevent detonation due to smoother chamber
walls, its special heads and light weight racing valves, along
with a cast iron crankshaft, stronger connecting rods, and high
compression pistons along with a choice between one or two 4V
or 4 barrel carburetors.
The next engine was the Medium Riser [M-R]. This engine was
offered from 1965-1967. It featured the side-oiler block. The M-
R was the most used 427 and also the least commended engine
despite its high reliability and power. The medium Riser 427 is
the most common and most rated against. As example the new
Edelbrock Performer RPM FE Heads are rated against none
other than the Medium Riser head.
The next two 427's were both options that could not be bought
in regular production vehicles. The first is the


Tunnel Port [T-P].
The Tunnel-Port 427 heads and manifold became available as a
option in 1968. These heads have huge round straight shot
intake ports. The T-P moved the intake ports to a position that
required the pushrods to be run through small tubes in the
middle of the intake port. Although the ports have a pushrod
right in the middle of them this design offered enough of a
benefit at high RPM to make for a more efficient design.
The T-P had elliptical intake ports that measured 2.34-inch by
2.17-inch. The Round ports tend to wire draw the mixture also
reduced the bends that tend to separate the fuel from the air. The
T-P's have 2.25-inch intake valves in a fully machined
combustion chamber. With 14:1 compression this engine in
NASCAR trim had upwards of 620 horsepower.


THE 427 SOHC
Finally the most powerful and exotic engine was the 427 SOHC
Aluminum heads with hemispherical combustion chambers and
opposed valves actuated by roller rockers riding on a single
camshaft located in the center of each head. The SOHC was
never put into a regular vehicle and was only offered as a over-
the-counter option for $2500. The well design of the SOHC
made it so powerful that competitors protested to racing
associations and within two years had the engine factored out of
competition. The SOHC used a special side-oiler block. With
12:1 compression this motor with one 4 barrel Holley made 616
horsepower @7000 rpm and 515 lb-ft of torque @3800 rpm.
With two 4 barrels it produced 657 hp.
Two different 427 Blocks were made the side-oiler and the
center-oiler. The center-oiler is similar to the regular 390 H.P.
oiling system. However the side-oiler was Fords block of choice
for high performance engines. The side oiler was developed for
the SOHC 427. The side-oiler worked by copying the oil pattern
to the first main bearing on all main bearings by means of a oil
passage down the left side of the block. The diagonal passages
drilled through the left side of the block connect this side gallery
with the rest of the oiling system This system ensures that the
main and cam bearings receive oil pressure directly from the oil
pump. The center oiler fed the front main bearings first and
allowed the other mains to take what was left over. Thereby
providing only one bearing with direct oiling unlike the side
oiler which provided all bearing a source directly off of the oil
pump.

well....i've dug myself silly today on engines....will have to find something different to look up tomorrow....maybe some duesenburg or auburn engines from the old days !
OldIron
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 10:50 am

Post by OldIron »

Some info here. I'll take one of everything on the track please ! =)

http://www.autoracing1.com/htmfiles/200 ... rd_100.htm

http://www.competitionplus.com/2005_01_ ... ports.html

and as "promised"... Duesenberg..another great American company.

http://www.duesenberg-racing.com/historyauto.htm

"1932: The supercharged Duesenberg designated "SJ" is announced. Developing 320 horsepower and a top speed of 140 mph. The Duesenberg J runs from zero to 100 mph in seven seconds and hits 104 in second gear. The Duesenberg is ahead of the competition again, and enthusiasm in the press and public is higher than ever. Relief from the Depression, however, is nowhere in sight."
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