Another new guy from Vegas! Introduction and question...

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:02 pm

Hey everyone! Just got turned onto this place recently from another website I frequent for Hemi info. Hopefully I'm introducing myself in the right place.

I recently picked up a '53 Chrysler 331 Hemi from a New Yorker. The motor is for my the Model A project I'm building. The motor is basically shot, but I'm not sure just how shot yet. Anyway, I don't have a lot to start with and am slowly planning out my build. I hope to learn a lot while I'm here and hopefully I can give back as well.

Since I'm here, I thought I should start with a question... Here goes.

The 331 I'm starting with was missing a head when I got it, but I had planned on using different heads to replace the early 331's anyway. A friend of mine is going to do a little horse trading with me to get me lined up with some replacement heads. My question is, what do I have to do to use 354 or 392 heads? I realize there are some drastic differences including water cross-over, manifold fitment (from deck height) and even some placement dowels or something. I can't seem to get a straight answer on what will work and what won't.

I should give you a quick low-down of what I have in mind for the motor. New or reground snubbed nose cam, .125 over, heads (as mentioned) log-type intake manifold for 4x2 or 6x2 (not sure on the cam yet), engine will be a street engine. No plans for racing.

Okay, now I'll be quiet and let you guys talk!

Thanks everyone!
Scooter

speedicusmaximus · Post by **speedicusmaximus** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:46 am

Hi scootermcrad,
Try checking out Tex Smith's Hemi book, if you don't have it already. It should answer at least some of your questions.
Regarding the heads, have you tried contacting the likes of Hemi Heads (or other Hemi-specific retailers), see if they can tell you ?
Or maybe see if there's any early Hemi websites that can answer your question - you can't be the first with this dilemma !
Post some pictures when you get chance of the engine and Model A.
Good luck with the project,
Mike

DHEMI · Post by **DHEMI** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:59 am

Go to the victory library.com/mopar/hemi-c.Use Yahoo,not Google.

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:41 am

I've got just about every book I can get my hands on including Tex Smith's book. It's great book! I haven't gotten all the way through it yet. Tons of good info so far though.

I'll check out Victory too! Thanks!

Here's some pics for you guys...
First the motor:

Beauty, eh?

The Model A project is another thing and a long story. It's a 31 Fordor Murray slant window... I really wanted to do something a little different with it, so I'm losing the back doors and shortening it where the doors were and taking another 3-inches out of the rear quarters. Will get a 4-inch chop and 4-inch channel. I'm shooting for a modified lakes style car. Big littles, 32 grille, exposed everything, etc. As mechanical looking as possible!
Here's a pic of the body now:

Here's a quick sketch of the concept:

Anyway, back to the Hemi stuff!

DblAdigger · Post by **DblAdigger** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:27 am

An answer to your first question. You must use eiter 331 or 354 heads. 392 heads will fit the block...but they are wider, and there is NO intake manifold I know of , that would fit that combination.

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:50 pm

So, even though I will be using a log type manifold, I would NOT be able to use 392 heads? Do the ports just not line up?

Bailiesdad · Post by **Bailiesdad** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:59 pm

If that is the picture of your 331, scrap the bad boy. Find a std configuration block.

Extended bell blocks are lots of headaches.

speedicusmaximus · Post by **speedicusmaximus** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:35 am

Hi,
I don't have the Tex Smith book to hand, but I'm sure somewhere in there there's mention of someone doing a transmission conversion for the extended block engines. I think it was for either big or small block torque-flites. Check out the trans pages in Tex's book. It will mean machining the block extension off though.
Just as an aside, how rare is the body you've got for the 'A ? Although I'm no specialist in them, Model A's, I've never heard of that manufacturer and variation.
Mike

George · Post by **George** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:34 am

Some adaptors for the long tail blocks are on the market, or you can cut off the extension, then bolt & weld a short tail adaptor to the block.When they raised the deck on the 392 they adjusted the heads, adding to the heads where the intake bolts on. You can then bolt any intake to the 392. However that means that no normal intake will fit on a 331/354 w 392 heads. A twin log intake that uses hose cross overs will work easy. If you use a single log U-Fab type intake you would have to cut & shorten the runners, then weld it back up.

johnny5 · Post by **johnny5** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:27 am

Hot Heads tranny adapters:

http://www.hothemiheads.com/transmissio ... anual.html
http://www.hothemiheads.com/transmissio ... 7.518.html

Buy another small-port 331 head and rebuild the set. They'll work fine for street purposes on a 365cid motor. The best thing you can do with them is open up the intake and exhaust ports to accept stock 1954-1956 1.94" 331-354 intakes and something in the 1.625" range (ground down from 1.75") exhausts and have the appropriate hardened seats installed. This should be worth close to 400hp with the log manifold you plan on using if you do it right.

TrWaters · Post by **TrWaters** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:02 pm

Both Bob at Hot Heads and Roger at Wilcap offer trans adapters for the extended blocks. I would recommend either. Both are great guys to deal with.

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:56 pm

Bailiesdad wrote:If that is the picture of your 331, scrap the bad boy. Find a std configuration block.

Extended bell blocks are lots of headaches.

Well... apparently Chrylsler Hemi's grow on trees in your area. Please send me one as soon as you can!

I'm not scrapping anything unless it's beyond rebuildable.

Thanks for the info on the adapters. I'm going to run a T-10, so I'm not too worried about the adaptation.

Back to heads... I'm trading some stuff for a pair of heads. My friend has several pairs including early 331, later 331, 354 and 392. I don't know the condition of any of them, but they should be fine. If I get an option to choose, which one's should I choose? I plan to go .125 over.

Also, if I go .125 over, does that put me at my limit?

George · Post by **George** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:35 pm

.125 is considerd the max. I've heard of a guy in Australia going out to 4"

, hopefully a filled block drag motor!! Easiest thing would be '54 heads & intake.

Bailiesdad · Post by **Bailiesdad** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:07 pm

scootermcrad wrote:
Bailiesdad wrote:If that is the picture of your 331, scrap the bad boy. Find a std configuration block.

Extended bell blocks are lots of headaches.
Well... apparently Chrylsler Hemi's grow on trees in your area. Please send me one as soon as you can!

I'm not scrapping anything unless it's beyond rebuildable.

Thanks for the info on the adapters. I'm going to run a T-10, so I'm not too worried about the adaptation.

Back to heads... I'm trading some stuff for a pair of heads. My friend has several pairs including early 331, later 331, 354 and 392. I don't know the condition of any of them, but they should be fine. If I get an option to choose, which one's should I choose? I plan to go .125 over.

Also, if I go .125 over, does that put me at my limit?

To buy a adaptor or machine off the block and tap for a belhousing would cost more than the 200-400 bucks for a std configuration 331 or 354 block.

Complete 56 cores with heads and 54 or 55 cores are available for 600-1200. Do the math and see what will be less expensive.

I know where there are at least 10 for sale all over the country in those price ranges.

Add the additional length and weight when going into a small frame car you would many many dollars ahead and lots of fab work less getting a good block/complete core to begin work. Look at the size of the Dodges they fit nicely in those type cars.

DHEMI · Post by **DHEMI** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:43 pm

Scootermcrad,just build it,and save a HEMI,don't listen to anyone who tells you different.'49 to '62(?)Oldsmobiles had same type extended block,never stopped them from becoming popular.My latest HEMI project is a DeSoto.Naysayers have told me to scrap it,but I have built it on a budget by checking ebay every day,a getting NOS things like Isky cam at reasonable prices.Forged pistons were required,but expense is same for any engine.Stock 4bbl manifolds go for approx.$300.00,but I will build one for half that using a certain component on ebay right now.Have never seen any HEMI trees in bloom around Reno....

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:31 pm

I don't see any real problems with building what I have. Everything I need is available and not any more money then any related parts for other standard block motors. I paid $250 for that core motor. I'm willing to give it a shot... In addition I know of two AWESOME extended bell 331's tearing up the streets planted in model A coupes! If you know Jimmy White or Brian Bass, then you know what I mean! Just to mention a couple...

I'm going to give this ol' girl a chance to live again. I have nothing to lose and out of coincidence my Father had the exact same motor in his Model A in the 60's (year and everything!) so it means that much more to build this one.

Thanks for the input and encouragement. Any comments on head choices would be appreciated. Also, if I DO go with 354 heads, what would be the smallest overbore I would want to go without getting into custom pistons and still get a decent compression with the 354 heads? School me, PLEASE!

DHEMI · Post by **DHEMI** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:53 am

Have seen all Jimmy White and Bass'nA vids,really cool.My reccomendation on over bore is to go no more than needed to clean it up,save some for later...

budmspeeco · Post by **budmspeeco** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:29 pm

If you use the 354 heads remember that they have 105cc chambers as the 331 heads have 100. Adjust the head milling to compensate or you will loose a little compression if you use stock type pistons and not custom jobs. I have a set of new 331 pistons with rings and rebuilt rods I took out of a marine engine . I bought two of them off eBay about a year ago. The engines had been rebuilt about 20 years ago in Corpus Christi and never used. They are the HD type with a steel insert around the top ring. The rings have a spacer in the bottom oil ring. I am going to use forged pistons and Pontiac rods in the block I was going to put them in. I am posting them in the parts section if anyone is interested. Maybe you.

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:07 am

Thanks for the tips guys!

I feel stupid for asking this, but what do you suggest for milling to compensate for the 5 cc difference between heads?

So, what would the max overbore be if I want to run the 354 heads? Any recomendation on off-the-shelf pistons for to get the job done...

To sum it up...
1) What needs to be done to 354 heads to not lower compression?
2) Max overbore and for the 331 that will work with the 354 heads?
3) What pistons to get the above done and keep the compression around 10:1 or 10.5:1?

I'll feel a lot better if I know the answer to those questions.

Learning some good stuff here! Thanks!

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:30 pm

Looks like I'll be running 392 heads... will make a custom water crossover or modify an existing and will run a 4x2 log type manifold.

So restating the questions above for 392 heads...
1) What would be an ideal overbore for the 331 to mate well w/ the 392 heads
2) Pistons for the job to keep it at 10:1 or so?
3) anything I should do to the heads to make the swap?

speedicusmaximus · Post by **speedicusmaximus** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:21 pm

Hi,
Regarding your questions, have you tried asking one of the Hemi-specialist shops directly ?
It's the sort of dilema/problem hey face most weeks, and as you've come across the problem with your engine, you can't be the first to do so.
See what you get off the website and then decide ......
Mike

Bailiesdad · Post by **Bailiesdad** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:58 pm

Has this block been magnafluxed?

What are the sonic test numbers on the cylinder walls of this block you are going to use?

Are you going to custom make the intake or try and level the carb bases by machining a manifold? What cfm carbs are planned?

What rod length and piston pin size are you planning for the engine?

Are you going to use the stock crank with stock stroke?

What type of rpms are you planning on spining the motor?

Are you planning to build a hyd, solid, or roller lifter motor?

What type of ignition is planned?

Answer these and some suggestions can be made.

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:20 pm

Bailiesdad wrote:Has this block been magnafluxed?

What are the sonic test numbers on the cylinder walls of this block you are going to use?

Are you going to custom make the intake or try and level the carb bases by machining a manifold? What cfm carbs are planned?

What rod length and piston pin size are you planning for the engine?

Are you going to use the stock crank with stock stroke?

What type of rpms are you planning on spining the motor?

Are you planning to build a hyd, solid, or roller lifter motor?

What type of ignition is planned?

Answer these and some suggestions can be made.

Alright, I'll answer what I know so far.

- Block has not yet been magnfluxed... that's going to be my next step. I was waiting for heads so I could get the crank, block and heads all magnafluxed at the same time.

- Intake manifold: I'm going to either run a log type 6x2 or 4x2. Most likely 4x2, as not to over-carb this engine; two Stromberg 97's and two 48's most likely. I will either custom make it or purchase one from Lakeheaders.com. Final decision will be based on cam choice obviously.

- planned to use stock 331/354 rods and crank (thus stock stroke)

- RPMs: I honestly don't know what this motor is capable of, but it will be for street use and I have no intentions of doing much more than that. Will be backed up by a T-10 or super T-10 as well. Won't take much to get my little Model A going...

- Cam: haven't spec'd out any cams as of yet, but know I will be switching to a snub nosed 354 cam (with required spacer), would like something somewhat aggressive, but not too rediculous. A nice "lopey" cam would be nice, but haven't decided on lift and durations as of yet. Would appreciate any suggestions.

- Lifters: Have no need for roller lifters. Was thinking hydraulic lifters would be fine for street, but have heard good things about solid/mechanical lifters. Heard the solids have a nice sound to them, but that's not going to be the deciding factor. Input would be appreciated on this also.

- Ignition: haven't decided. Pretty much ruled out magnetos because of the cost. I love them, but can't justify it. I really don't want to deal with points either, so the stock distributor is going. Would appreciate some input on ignitions and recommended wire size as well.

Thanks for your help guys!
Scooter

Bailiesdad · Post by **Bailiesdad** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:36 pm

Before you go buying anything, particularly the 392 heads for your 331, get the magnaflux reports on the block, crank and rods. Then the sonic check report on the block.

While you are at it get the estimate to convert the block for use with the trans you want and the cost of the adaptors for use with an extended bell block....

Come back with the hard numbers.

Everything without that info is just speculation.

scootermcrad · Post by **scootermcrad** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:44 pm

Bailiesdad wrote:Before you go buying anything, particularly the 392 heads for your 331, get the magnaflux reports on the block, crank and rods. Then the sonic check report on the block.

While you are at it get the estimate to convert the block for use with the trans you want and the cost of the adaptors for use with an extended bell block....

Come back with the hard numbers.

Everything without that info is just speculation.

I appreciate your honesty and I agree that it makes sense to do that, but for reasons I don't care to go into, I would like to speculate that things are fine with that block for now. I have a back up plan if it's not. In the mean time, I would like to learn all I can. I'll cross bridges and barriers as I come to them.

As for the extended bell adapter, I already have one lined up from either Wilcap or Hot Hemi Heads, designed and built to work with GM four speed tansmissions including the T-10 transmissions (according to Bob Walker).

So please, info on the above would be helpful. Thanks!