lifter noise or I thought it was.

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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hemi4t
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lifter noise or I thought it was.

Post by hemi4t »

I have a 392 which has what I thought was lifter noise, but when I pulled the left side valve cover there was metal shavings and one push rod was chewed up as well as a few rockers and the head surface was bone dry not even a hint of oil. I know i ruined a set of rockers, shafts and push rods. The engine has less than 500 miles and there was oil to the rockers when I first fired it up and when I did a resetting of the valves it seemed a lot dryer then the right bank but still had some oil. Now there is no oil. Any ideal what could cause this? Can the cam bearings cause this? What can be done short of tearing the motor apart? Any ideals would be helpful.
George
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Post by George »

Oil comes through a small oil hole in a rocker stand, one in from the end, depending on what side it's on, looks different from the others. If you had oil, & now you don't, there is a good chance something clogged up the passage.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:Oil comes through a small oil hole in a rocker stand, one in from the end, depending on what side it's on, looks different from the others. If you had oil, & now you don't, there is a good chance something clogged up the passage.
George, is there a way to blow air through the passage on the engine with the rocker assy. still on. Can a cam bearing rotate to not allow oil to the left bank? I'm hoping it is plugged only and not a cam bearing.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:Oil comes through a small oil hole in a rocker stand, one in from the end, depending on what side it's on, looks different from the others. If you had oil, & now you don't, there is a good chance something clogged up the passage.
I talked with Bob Walker at hotheads and he says there is a possiblity that a galley plug around the intermediate shaft area is not there or came out does anyone have a picture of where this plug is in the block? I know of the two at the rear but if those were out it would leak from the back of the engine at the flex plate. Thanks
George
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Post by George »

At the back of the block is the cam plug. On the left side, lined up with the dist.,is a oil plug, behind that is the intermediate cam gear. With the int. shaft pulled, you can see the plug he's talking about. If it wasn't in place I'd be suprised if you had any oil pressure :o One common trick is to drill a hole in the plug to oil the intermediate shaft. Typically .020-.050 The fact that you had oil on that side let to the clogged passage comment, vs drilling a hole that was too big. Don't know if there is enough room for the plug to fall out if not tightened down, would probably hit the Int. shaft. But if Bob Walker says that is where you need to look, I'd do it!
hemi4t
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Location: Hartland, Michigan

Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:At the back of the block is the cam plug. On the left side, lined up with the dist.,is a oil plug, behind that is the intermediate cam gear. With the int. shaft pulled, you can see the plug he's talking about. If it wasn't in place I'd be suprised if you had any oil pressure :o One common trick is to drill a hole in the plug to oil the intermediate shaft. Typically .020-.050 The fact that you had oil on that side let to the clogged passage comment, vs drilling a hole that was too big. Don't know if there is enough room for the plug to fall out if not tightened down, would probably hit the Int. shaft. But if Bob Walker says that is where you need to look, I'd do it!
George, thanks for the reply. If the plug was out I thought there might not be pressure but it depends where the oil supply hole is when the engine rotates it feeds one bank then the other so in theory you could have pressure on one side but not the other. That is why the oil pulses at the rockers. My thinking I had some oil on the left bank at start up could have been assembly lube and not oil. So I am going to assume I had no oil to the left side from the beginning and did the damage as the assembly lube was dissapated. I should have been more cautious and ran through oil priming with the covers off I did not and now I'm paying the price for cutting corners.
George
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Post by George »

Where you might not have been getting oil in the first place, did you make sure the rocker stand with the oil passage is in the right place?
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:Where you might not have been getting oil in the first place, did you make sure the rocker stand with the oil passage is in the right place?
Yes, I verified the stand was in the right position over the hole for oil. After some discussion about the oil galley plug it was thought that my oil pressure would be low if the plug was not there. Mine is about 75 psi cold.
The other thought was maybe the head gasket was on wrong blocking off the oil passage or the cam bearing was not in correct position. I need to put the cam in the right position and some how verify where the blockage is and I do not know a good way to do it short of taking the whole engine apart. Any ideals on how to find out where the blockage is?
George
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Post by George »

To check the head gasket placement remove the rocker assembly & run a piece of stiff wire, maybe welding rod, down the hole. Should be easy to tell if it bottoms out @ the gasket. Don't think you could tell if it is clear all the way to the cam, debris or spun cam bearing, w/o pulling the cam so you can see down the cam bore.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:To check the head gasket placement remove the rocker assembly & run a piece of stiff wire, maybe welding rod, down the hole. Should be easy to tell if it bottoms out @ the gasket. Don't think you could tell if it is clear all the way to the cam, debris or spun cam bearing, w/o pulling the cam so you can see down the cam bore.

that is the game plan.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

hemi4t wrote:
George wrote:To check the head gasket placement remove the rocker assembly & run a piece of stiff wire, maybe welding rod, down the hole. Should be easy to tell if it bottoms out @ the gasket. Don't think you could tell if it is clear all the way to the cam, debris or spun cam bearing, w/o pulling the cam so you can see down the cam bore.

that is the game plan.
UPDATE:
Well I pulled the rocker assembly and put a rod down the oil hole and it went down to the cam. I can not tell if the hole in the cam bearing is lined up with the oil passage hole. I will need to pull the cam to see if the cam bearing is in wrong. My questions are 1) can you pull the front two cam bearings and install new ones from the front of the engine(in the car) ? 2) Can you rotate the cam bearing once installed to line up the oil passage holes? 3) If the oil holes in the #2 cam bearing were not aligned wouldn't that cam journal not get oil either and damage the cam? Any other fixes to try?
DblAdigger
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Post by DblAdigger »

1) yes. 2) NO. 3) it's possible to install the #2 bearing in a position where the cam gets oil...but the rockers don't.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

DblAdigger wrote:1) yes. 2) NO. 3) it's possible to install the #2 bearing in a position where the cam gets oil...but the rockers don't.
What procedure is required to pull the bearings and install them from the front? What tool is needed? I've always had a machine shop install the cam bearings so I'm not sure on the procedures to do this. The crank feeds the #2 cam journal when lined up so I can assume that if the cam bearing is getting oil the bearing was installed in a mirror image(flipped) so the hole would not line up to the passage to the rocker assembly? Can I just drill the bearing to open it to the rocker instead of pulling it with the cam out of course?
DblAdigger
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Post by DblAdigger »

If you are sure that the cam bearing has NOT spun in the block and you can clean things properly afterwards, then...yes you can drill the bearing in place. Not the best way to do things but, it's your engine.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
hemi4t
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Location: Hartland, Michigan

Post by hemi4t »

I thought about drilling the cam bearing but I realized that could just lead to more problems with shavings going where they are not suppose to go. I have to pull the engine to replace the cam bearings anyway so I figure there might be something else that was missed during assembly and I want to recheck everthing one more time.
DblAdigger
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Post by DblAdigger »

When installing number 2 and 4 cam bearings, note that each has 3 oil holes in it. Often, one is larger than the other two. If so, the big hole goes toward the main bearing and one of the other holes will line up with the oil passage to the top of the block when the bearing is installed properly.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
hemi4t
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:04 am
Location: Hartland, Michigan

Post by hemi4t »

DblAdigger wrote:When installing number 2 and 4 cam bearings, note that each has 3 oil holes in it. Often, one is larger than the other two. If so, the big hole goes toward the main bearing and one of the other holes will line up with the oil passage to the top of the block when the bearing is installed properly.
Thanks, the info will help me identify if the bearing is in wrong. There is got to be a reason the oil is not getting to the left rocker assembly.
George
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Post by George »

Unrelated, but, did you make sure the hollow locating dowl is around the oil pump shaft between the block & rear cap?
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:Unrelated, but, did you make sure the hollow locating dowl is around the oil pump shaft between the block & rear cap?
George,
I bought the engine as part of a project it was assembled with heads and block with oil pan on. I finished the externals spun up the oil pump and had oil pressure so I fired it up and ran the cam in. I did not do the primming with the valve covers off, my mistake, but I had good pressure so I fired it up. I do not know what to expect now when I do get it out of the car and torn down! I know the dowl helps lining up the end cap and without it you could wipe the pump drive out if the shaft hits the cap, but, I have good oil pressure. What else can it cause?
George
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Post by George »

I'd think that would be enough! I recently picked up a rebuilt 331. The seller had someone build it, pro mechanical type I'd assume, but evidently not a Hemi guy, as the dowel was missing.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

George wrote:I'd think that would be enough! I recently picked up a rebuilt 331. The seller had someone build it, pro mechanical type I'd assume, but evidently not a Hemi guy, as the dowel was missing.
George,
You hit the nail on the head. Pro built does not mean perfect. One part in wrong and you have what I have in my engine. I talked to the engine builder the person I bought my project from had build this engine and this guy is reputable so we all make mistakes. Unfortunatelly I'm the one with the end result of having to take the engine out of my car and completely tearing it down to correct the problem. The old saying buyer beware.
hemi4t
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Post by hemi4t »

Well I thought I would update this so what I found when I pulled the engine apart is unbelieveable. First was the engine was not cleaned internally, second, was the number two cam bearing was in number three position(reason I was not getting oil to left bank), third oil passages had crud in them and oil pan full of grit, fourth all my bearings need to be replaced from grit abrasion, Pistons did not have the correct locks for the wrist pins and rods were not side clearenced. All this supposedly from a "professional builder". Oh, one more the heads have to be redone do to improper valve guide installation and a very bad valve grind job. I trusted the seller being honest with me about the engine work and all the parts were new in the engine but, the asembly and machine work were terrible. Buyer be ware! :oops:
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