331 HEMI

[Hemi07]

Hey guys I need some help yet again. I just found a 331 hemi with an adapter plate already made to bolt up to a 727, motor cranks over by hand, but I don't know if it runs the guy wants $850.00. what is the down side of trying to put one of these in a 69 charger? also is the price within reason.

Thanks

[George]

That's a good price if it's all there & no suprises, espicaily with the adaptor plate. Use an 8 bolt 426 hemi flex plate.

[392heminut]

Go here;

http://www.thehemi.com/tips.php?id=0006

and open up the PDF file. That is the writeup I did on the swap I did to my 70 Cuda, it would be basically the same for a 69 Charger. It's not a drop in deal, but it's not hard to do either. If somethings not clear or you have questions feel free to email me.
Larry

[Hemi07]

I read through the article, first off it is very good. The question I do have, is it worth replacing my 383 that is re-built with only around 3500 miles on it. Also can I get enough power out of a 331 to make it worth it.

Thanks for the help.

[mart]

I read through the article, first off it is very good. The question I do have, is it worth replacing my 383 that is re-built with only around 3500 miles on it. Also can I get enough power out of a 331 to make it worth it.

If you want to have a hemi 'just to have
a hemi,' then go for it. But if you your
looking at this deal from a matter of strict
practicality and economics, than stay with
your still fresh 383. Power-wise, with the
331 hemi emi, you'd be going to a heavier engine
with 52 fewer cubes, just to start with.
You could fairly easily build and modify
the 331 to equal or exceed the power of
a stock 383, but at a cost. First, the hemi is
likely going to need a complete rebuild
just to get it in shape and then your going
to have upgrade and modify it to beat the
power of your existing 383 To do that, figure
in addition to the cost of the stock rebuild
(and even stock hemi's aren't cheap engines
to rebuild!) on an aftermarket cam, head work,
( ie -porting and oversize valves etc.) an
aftermarket intake and carb(s) and ignition. If
your going to try and make some serious power,
figure in a set of good forged race pistons at
least a couple of hundred dollars more than the
already pricy 'stock type' cast replacement
pistons. Then there's the exhaust. There's no '
off the shelf' headers for this swap, so unless
you plan on running the restrictive stock cast
iron manifolds, - not a good thing if you're
looking for power - plan on major bucks
and/or lots of work to build and /or modify a
set of headers to fit. It's all do-able but it all
depends on what you want and what your
willing to pay to get what you want. The hemi -
assuming the block or heads are still usable
though, sounds like a deal. If you decided not
use it your Charger, you could probably buy
and resell it for more than you paid for it. One
last thought. A hemi would be cool in your
Charger and have some very definite 'wow'
factor! If you want that, then go for it. But if
you were looking strictly at power per dollars
spent and nothing else, - not that I'd do this
- but imagine how much additional power you
could get from your 383 with another 3 - 4,
or 5- thousand dollars into it that the hemi
build-up, upgrade and swap is likely going to
cost??!! But then - *FORTUNATELY* - we
hot-rodders aren't exactly the most practical,
level-headed and logical people in the world.
If we were, we wouldn't be messing with
cars in the first place!!! <GRIN>

mart
===================

[Hemi07]

Mart thanks for your advice. The truth is I want the wow factor of the Hemi, but I don't want it to be to sluggish, which is why I ask about power. The engine was running and had 40lbs of oil pressure when it was pulled. Basically if the 200 plus HP will be enough I am OK with that. I still would probably want to re-build it, but based on your comments you suggest a basic build up will be around 5K?

Thanks

[mart]

Mart thanks for your advice. The truth is I want the wow factor of the Hemi, but I don't want it to be to sluggish, which is why I ask about power. The engine was running and had 40lbs of oil pressure when it was pulled. Basically if the 200 plus HP will be enough I am OK with that. I still would probably want to re-build it, but based on your comments you suggest a basic build up will be around 5K?

Thanks

----------------------
No. if the engine's still in fairly decent shape, a near-stock spec
build up should be a lot less than 5g's. I used that approximate
figure assuming a highly modified, high horsepower engine build
If you mainly want the hemi for the 'wow' factor and would be
ok with something around the 300 -325 hp range you could -
with a bit of scrounging and wheeling and dealing
- probably do it for about half that much. For that power level,
cast stock-type replacement pistons would be ok. (It's highly
unlikely - but I suppose - not totally impossible, that the stock
50-odd year-old pistons and cylinder bores might be ok 'as is'
and only require honing and new rings. Better figure on at least
new pistons and a bore job, though.. Whatever you do, don't
waste your time and money on trying to have the original
pistons knurled!)
You might be able to get by with a high-performance type
regrind on the stock cam and dig up a used Offy or Wieand
dual-quad intake somewhere. In a pinch, a stock cast iron
354 or 392 single 4bbl. intake with an adapter plate for a
780 cfm Holley carb would be ok too. If you buy a used
aftermarket 'performance' cam at a swap meet or on ebay
- just be absolutely sure it's for a 331 or 354. Aftermarket
392 style cams are more common, but won't work in a 331
block, as the lifter bank angle is different on the 392 block.
Note too that with either a reground stocker or an aftermarket
cam - even if you stay with hydraulic lifters, you'll probably
need to spring for a set of aftermarket adjustable pushrods.
I think probably the most money - and the money best spent
too - will be in the heads. - for a general rebuild first and
then some mild porting and some 392 (or larger) sized valves.
If you go for larger valves, you'll need to cut new seats in the
heads and you should have them hardened for unleaded gas.
Some shops can electricly 'induction' harden the seats for a
for a lot less then using inserts. Just be sure and ask.
Hope some of this helps and I hope I haven't scared you off
the hemi. Just know what your getting into before you pull
out a perfectly good running 383 and know that for a 2500
or so dollar build-up on a 331, it might be ok on the street,
but just don't expect to set any dragstrip speed records.

mart
================

[392heminut]

In addition to Mart's excellent advice, I would recommend having a sonic check done on the block and then boring it to use 354 pistons. Most 331's have plenty of cylinder wall thickness to do this and it is a common upgrade on them, it's just good insurance to get the sonic check done. You'll pick up the extra 24 cubic inches, and you can probably get a higher compression ratio off the shelf piston for a 354. You might want to check out the Keith Black hyperutectic pistons, more durable than the regular cast pistons and still pretty reasonably priced.

[hemi4t]

There is good advise here on what to think about before you take the plunge and buy the 331. I would first find a shop that can do a good job with your hemi. Go over what you are looking to get out of the engine performance wise and find out the cost for the rebuild for your requirements (out the door price). I would make sure the shop had a history with the old hemis just so they know what parts are available and the little details the old hemis require when machining them and asembling them. And be prepared for addtional cost once the work gets started, we've all been there right? You can always sell the 383 to recoup some of your rebuild cost.

[Hemi07]

Guys I really appreciate your help and input!!! I am pretty sure I am going to buy the engine and start the rebuild. I don't need anything that is going to burn up the drag strip just something that will look and sound good going down the road. I live in town so racing is pretty much out of the question, not to mention I don't want to mess up my car being stupid.

Again thanks for your help I am sure I will need tons more in the near future.

[George]

Personaly where your not racing, I'd bore it .030 & have some wall left for the future. Boring to 354 is max. If you open up the throttle bore holes on the intake a 600/650 Edelbrock fits right on.

[Hemi07]

OK, I was able to look at the engine, and gather all of the info on it as it turns out it is a 1955 desot 291 firefox HEMI. I am guessing this changes most of the info we have already discussed. Sorry for the mix up the guy that found it for me was told it was a 331.

I do have photos, so when I am able to figure out how to upload them i will do so.


Thanks

[George]

OK, I was able to look at the engine, and gather all of the info on it as it turns out it is a 1955 desot 291 firefox HEMI. I am guessing this changes most of the info we have already discussed. Sorry for the mix up the guy that found it for me was told it was a 331.

I do have photos, so when I am able to figure out how to upload them i will do so.


Thanks

you'd be amazed @ how many 392s turn out to be a DeSoto or a wedge engine!

[George]

That's still not a bad price. Physically the DeSoto is a smaller engine & will be easier to fit in. You'd have to get custom forged pistons to get a decent comp ratio, unless some NOS high comp ones show up on EBay.

[mart]

I think you'd be hard pressed, using a little 291 and trying to
make it equal or exceed the power of a 383.....at least still
keeping the build cost within reason and having the
resulting engine be streetable. I agree though, that the price
is still pretty good. It might be ideal for someone building a
streetrod or wanting to put a hemi into a Valient, Dart, or
early Barracuda.

mart
==============================

[Hemi07]

I think you'd be hard pressed, using a little 291 and trying to
make it equal or exceed the power of a 383.....at least still
keeping the build cost within reason and having the
resulting engine be streetable. I agree though, that the price
is still pretty good. It might be ideal for someone building a
streetrod or wanting to put a hemi into a Valient, Dart, or
early Barracuda.

mart

I have already accepted the fact that I will not get the power to match my 383, so I am ok with 200+ especially with Gas approaching $5.00 a gallon

I may end up with the best of both worlds a hemi and better gas mileage I am only getting 10-11MPG's at the moment. also right now I have all this power and no real place to use it that is legal and safe anyways.

[Hemi07]

All right guys I wanted to know your opinions on buying what has turned out to be a 291 Hemi and putting in a charger. do you think it will look to small or decrease the value etc... just looking for a little more guidance.

Thanks

[mart]

All right guys I wanted to know your opinions on buying what has turned out to be a 291 Hemi and putting in a charger. do you think it will look to small or decrease the value etc... just looking for a little more guidance.
Thanks

-----------
I don't think it'd look particularly small in there. The DeSoto
block is a lot smaller than the 383, but visually at least, the
wide Hemi heads and valve covers would give the *illusion* that
it's as big as the 383, even though it's not.
About value. By the time you have the engine in there and
everything the way you want it, you'll have a fair bit of money
into it that you won't likely recoup when you sell the car. Prices
are set by supply and demand and probably a lot more people
out there would buy a clean 383 Charger than one with an
oddball 'baby Hemi' DeSoto engine swap. That's not to say that
other than yourself, there might be someone or a few 'someones'
out there that might want a car exactly like that and be willing
to pay for it. But the market would definitely be a lot smaller
than it is right now! It's your car though. and you should build it
any way you want and can afford to. You said that you'd be ok
even with 200 hp. If you're ok with that and just want a Hemi in
there, go for it. But don't expect to get your money back out
of it anytime soon or maybe ever. Personally, I know that I
wouldn't want a something as small as a 291 cubic inch engine,
Hemi or not - in a 3800 lb. Charger body, just for the novelty
of having a Hemi. If I wanted a Hemi, I'd probably either swap
a late model 5.7 or 6.1 Hemi into the Charger, or sell the car
and take the money and buy a nice clean (and much ligher)
A-body (Valient, Dart, Duster, Demon or Barracuda) - build
the 291 up a bit and put it into that. That could be way cool,
get reasonable mileage and still have some zip! Also, I don't
think you'd have much trouble selling it for a decent buck
someday either. Just something to think about.

mart
================================

[Hemi07]

Thanks for your input Mart I am just trying to make sure I make a well informed decision. I just don't want to make a mistake that I will regret in the future if i would ever need to sell the car or something.

[polyspheric]

To be honest, I see this as a mistake.
It's going to be longer, more complex and more expensive project than you think, far more expensive than (for example) a Chrysler crate motor.
Trust me: 200 hp is less than the 318 motor the car might have had.
Let's assume it's done. It's not fast. It's not reliable, at least in the sense that you can't simply take it to a shop for service, and can't just buy parts for it (water pump, exhaust, gaskets, belts, pulleys, hoses). There is no service manual.
Unless you open the hood, it's just another Charger.
If you do open the hood, the first thing someone is going to assume is that it's a 426 - because that's what might have come in the car.
When it's not a 426, the next guess is a 392.
When it's not, it's a 354.
When it's not even a Chrysler, they'll ask you "why don't you put a 392 in it?".
If their opinion is important to you (it certainly isn't to me), you're not going to be happy.
If it isn't - why are you doing all this work?

[dan miller]

I agree 100%. Absolutely a mistake.

It would be a fun and challenging engine to play with, but it belongs somewhere else.

Danny