Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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gwo
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Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by gwo »

Hi There

I am new to Hemis, but have a few questions and hope that someone out there may be able to help/advise

I have a 331 in a 1954 500S Kurtis. The plan is to road race the car. The car has a running 331 in it, that was supposed to have been in a Ferrari in period, but that is another story.

My plan is to build up another engine. The question is what spec. I am tied by the rules to running what was/could be done in period. So the first question is what engine castings to start from (it has to have a long bellhousing).

My plan is to try and find a 53 331 block and some 354 heads.

(Remembering this is a road race motor not a ¼ mile engine and I would like to be able to do 50 hours plus between refreshing it).

What are the next tuning goodies/cheap mods I should look at. What cam and manifold/cam

The plan is to run 102 octane fuel, so somewhere around 12.5:1 compression. I cant use roller rockers/followers etc

What sort of power and at what rpm would this give?

The final question? Is there an easy way of moving the starter motor to the other side of the block? It is running an XK120 gearbox

Any advice greatly appreciated

Thanks

G
George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

Up @ www.webrodder.com Doc Fromader does a long tail 331 short block build, & I think it is for road racing! He's "Chief Wiesel" on his Forum. welcome to the world of hemis! Get Tex Smith's hemi book by Ron Ceridono. :D
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scottm
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by scottm »

1955 Chrysler C300 "Road Race"
http://www.thehemi.com/registry.php?id=87

We need to try to wake up Ron and get him in here! 8)
polyspheric
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by polyspheric »

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polyspheric
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by polyspheric »

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foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

why can't you run the short deck hemi?, would'nt the real issue be 331 cu. in either configuration? as far as adapting the trans I have two adapters that can place the starter on either side. your 55 kurtis would be correct with, in my mind, with any early Hemi, if you are building to FIA rules" you may have no part not fitted to the car in the year it competed" as far as road race set up my advice (free) is to keep it simple, that is the most easily repairable.
polyspheric
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by polyspheric »

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foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

Pictures of a 55 Kurtis Indy car, I recently shipped them a 55 331 block for this car. The long deck block(51/53) limits the number of trans that can be easily mounted, also I consider the 55 heads to be optimum,factory hardened valve seats, good flow.
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foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

After some thought and assuming you are building to FIA I would set up as follows 54/55 block, 53/54 heads,2x 4 bbls magnito dist. the stock valve springs could be bumped to 125,s and then use a hydraulic cam from Iskiderian, the grind should come alive at 2500RPM and run to 5000RPM the compression should be kept close to the stock nine and a half to one, and run pump gas (93 octane) I use an adapter for the oil pump (360 Dodge HP) homemade baffles in the pan for oil control. An old hemi racer told me to run an extra quart of oil when racing, imagine you are in a corner hard at 4500RPM, wheres your oil?
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George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

Why run '53 heads on a '55 block? If he wants something like that, just get a '54 4 bl engine.
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

That would work. I was thinking based on parts he already has.
George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

foolthrottle wrote:That would work. I was thinking based on parts he already has.
He didn't say what year 331 he has, just that he wanted a '53 block & 354 heads.
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

Clarification, for a long time I've called the extended 331 block a long deck or 54/55 331 a short deck always referring to length, front to back. When speaking to people about these particular engines I don't recall anyone misunderstanding, I know the difference between high deck and low deck, meaning height, top to bottom, example: 331/354 are low deck, all configurations, the 392 is a high deck, just like a Dodge 383 is a low deck and a 440 is a high deck, although many parts interchange in these groups some do not without modification. push rods for a 354 are too short for a 392, the intake for a 331 can't be used without spacers on a 392 and so on. the dodge and desoto early hemis although similar in appearance: almost nothing interchanges with Chryslers or eachother for that matter.Vintage racing rules are another tin of fish altogether, I think that a 54 Kurtis would be able to run the engine I desribed. Chrysler in the early 50's was building export models with 2x4s, solid lifter cams,and these same parts could have been fitted to a 54 Kurtis. Twenty years ago I saw a car that was claimed to be an original PanAm export car it was a 53/54 Chrysler 2 door coupe it had what appeared to be factory 2x4, a 3speed colum shift, larger capacity radiator, and most amazing of all factory disc brakes from a limousine of the era.
For fun lets build a rules compliant,Hemi powered, 54 Kurtis (on paper)how would it be set up? I think it should be black with chrome halibrants,for starters, any ideas?
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

George wrote:He didn't say what year 331 he has, just that he wanted a '53 block & 354 heads.
so his build would be a 331 extended block with 354 heads and a xk120 trans? I got the impression he was looking for advice, he also wanted to move the starter from one side to the other, all of which is certainly doable. Would you recommend he set it up like that? what cam do you recommend? other mods? What do you think of my suggestions? Really, not to be a smart...
George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

Wonder if he looked @ the Webrodder build I mentioned earlier. You can put a 331 intake on a 392 w/o spacers if you use the 392 heads. Spacers required if using 331/354 heads. Cam: talk to Bob Walker or Chris Nielson.
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

Heres a vintage racer at the Pikes peak hillclimb 2008 it has a 354 2x4 hemi Its a Chrysler New Yorker I think a 54. Goerge I want to see some of your pictures I know you've got some.
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gwo
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by gwo »

Hi All

Thanks for the info so far, I am glad I have started some debate!

The car is to run FIA.

The term road racing in my original post may not have been right. I will be running at Goodwood and Silverstone (I supose like LAguna Seca over there).

There is another Hemi engined Kurtis that has the all important FIA papers. That car runs 2 x 4bbl

I was suprised by the 9:1 on 93 octane gas recommendation. My instinct was to go to more like 12.5:1. 102 octane fuel is allowed and available. 99 Octane is available everywhere in Europe. I was also inclined to be looking at more like 3500-6000 rpm (or even more) rather than 2500-5000 as a power band. Would 4 bolt main caps be needed at say 6750 red line?

I will look at the car over the weekend and get the casting numbers of the block and head I have. Although my plan has been to build a second motor from scratch and keep this one as a running spare

So the big question is would a 331 bored to 354 at 12.5:1 compression and 2x4bbl give 500bhp at 6500 rpm?

Thanks for all your help

Geraint
George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

I think I'd shoot for the lower RPM range, where you were talking longevity of the engine.
Octane in Europe, how is it calculated? Seems i read where 98 in Australia is the same octane as 93 is in the US. Hemis can run 1 point higher compression than wedges @ the same octane. My '55 331 has 9:1 pistons & runs fine on 87.
All factory 2X4 intakes that I'm aware of are dry intakes for '55-'58. Edmunds made wet 2X4 & 2X2 intakes for 51-4.
I'm a bit behind on cameras. I use a Kodak Instamatic that uses 110 film! :o
George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

51-4 2 bl engines are refered to as long tails by everyone that I've ever communicated with. The deck refers to where the heads bolt on & the distance from the crank centerline to there. Just trying to reduce the chance for confusion. :D
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

Geraint
First of all, the Goodwood and silverstone are for me the Holy Grail of vintage motor racing.that said. Do you have current pictures of your Kurtis, detailed pictures of the motor, radiator, water pump, etc.? Do you have pictures of your competitors motor, the one with FIA papers? My experience in motor racing hemis is long distance enduro rally type racing like the Carrera Panamericana (2100 miles) lA Medea Noche (290 miles) etc. so the car is set up for the long haul, high rear axle ratio and a serious effort by me to keep the revs under 5000RPM. My guess is that at Goodwood you will be doing ten or twenty laps and the hillclimb. what is needed there is tork,( launch out of the corners) so my recommendation is a duplicate of your current motor with a solid lifter cam, you would need 125 lbs valve springs and you would need adjustable rockers or pushrods, a two four barrel intake with two barrels instead of fours, a Mallory or Joe Hunt HEI distributor. as to four bolt mains? I use ARP studs for the main caps and ARP rod bolts, next is oiling I made an adaptor for my oil pump which is a Dodge 360 hp, but after market pump adapters are available, but be sure they match the distributor drive(hex or slot) and oil pickup modified to fit my pan, really important is oil control baffles in the oil pan. To answer your question about overbore, higher compression, and heads, with a solid lifter cam and 2 fours I would think so. but then I have questions about water pump, cooling, etc. if you look at the front of the 1956 354 heads, they've got a provision for the 56 water pump to draw water, would that be an issue?
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

found this, this manifold appears to be an aluminum 4 x2 set up with Stromberg 97's I like it. the heads appear to be 53/54 judging from the radiator hose. George?
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gwo
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by gwo »

Those three photos are of my car!!!!

Geraint
George
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by George »

gwo wrote:Those three photos are of my car!!!!

Geraint
OK, so tell us about the intake. Looks like a twin log.
foolthrottle
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by foolthrottle »

Geraint
I would recommend you concentrate on getting the FIA papers, once that's done, you can change things around a bit. I don't know whats required as it pertains to continuation cars but it would seem to me that because your car uses an original frame, engine, etc. you should be good. I've seen cars, Astons, Ferraris, built from less. the car appears to be, spot on, for period correctness. The valve covers are a bit garish for my taste (However well done) but everything else is looking good, the car as its set up should give you everything you need for Goodwood or any vintage venue in the US. IF IT WORKS DON'T FIX IT.
Years ago I contacted Kurtis's son in Bakersfield about one of the 10 or so original frames he had, at the time too pricey for me but in hind site, cheap. pictures please.
dan miller
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Re: Road Race 331 spec advice sought from new poster here

Post by dan miller »

Hello Geraint

You asked if 500 hp is doable. No problem! Our Engine Masters Challenge 331 (335cid) made over 500 hp @ 6200 rpm with a single 4 bbl carb (stock crank, steel rods, mild flat tappet cam, 10.5:1 compression ratio). With a little more cam and compression, I'd anticipate 550 @ around 7000 rpm. Add another carb or two (or three), spin it up to 7500 or so and count on 600 hp.

We're updating a Cunningham Manifold (available through Hot Heads) for our 2009 EMC entry (354 @ 365 cid), and bolting on four 48IDA's (bored to 51.5).

The EMC deal is about average power 3000-7000 rpm, so it has to be stout down low. The aforementioned 335 cid EMC engine is sitting in a corner of my shop, and you're welcome to wander over (Redding, CA), take it apart, and scope it out. It's amazingly basic, lots of stock Chrysler parts. As with any high performance engine, it's the little details that make power and allow the engine live a long and productive life.

Danny (danmiller@clearwire.net)
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