Sealing girdle to block

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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DRHEMI
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:30 am

Sealing girdle to block

Post by DRHEMI » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:17 pm

Hi, this is my 1st posting....

I am assisting a friend build up a 354 671 supercharged Hemi. At my suggestion, he is going to use one of my top fuel girdles I have had for years. He asked me a question that I thought maybe someone out here might have some thoughts on.

His question was how effective can the girdle be if the main cap forces have to distributed through the girdle to the block by passing through a layer of gasket? He wondered if it would be better to place a machined groove in the pan rail to accept some kind of linear O-ring, allowing the girdle to clamp directly to the block, with the O-ring material handling the oil control. Any thoughts on this?
thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by dan miller » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:57 pm

Hello Andy

Is this the kind of girdle that clamps down on the main caps, or utilizes the main cap bolts? It will have to be machined dry (without a gasket), and you can seal it against the pan rail with silicone. It shouldn't leak.

Have you seen Tom Water's girdles? (T. R. Waters Early Hemi Parts) It's similar to the Ford girdles. It utilizes long studs, spacers on top of the mains, and then the girdle, which is made from about .375" steel. The girdle picks up all the front four main cap bolts and one on the rear main (allowing the use of a stock oil pump).

It's a nifty deal. Plenty stout, and doesn't require line boring/honing.

Danny

budmspeeco
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by budmspeeco » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:02 pm

The clamping force of a stud is more than a bolt setup. I have always align honed or align bored the mains in a motor that I converted to main studs. The distortion ain't much but it is there !!!! Not worth the thought of a burned bearing not to spend the money for a little more machine work. Buddy
'48 anglia

TrWaters
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by TrWaters » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:11 pm

The clamping force, or torque, is no different with studs or bolts. 85 lbs is 85 lbs, correct? The difference is that the force is distributed differently . A bolt relies primarily on the threads in the block and the area under the head of the bolt. ( you are in effect "twisting" the bolt to attain torque). A stud will utilize the threads in the block to a small degree ( this is why studs are only snugged into the block). The rest of the force is in the single axis of the stud itself.

I have asked quite a few well known engine builders about the myth of having to align hone with studs. They all said the same thing. They have checked the same main bores using both bolts and studs, and have seen no difference in size.

None the less, align honing is something to consider on a major rebuild, whether using bolts or studs.

To the original poster, as Danny stated, using a thin bead of quality silicone type sealer should do the trick for you.
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

DRHEMI
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:30 am

Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by DRHEMI » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:34 pm

After all of these Hemis sitting (Literally) for decades in my garage, now something is happening! My friend with the Girdle question is building a 671 blown 354. The reason I suggested using a girdle is that we intend to purchase a Bryant crank to build him a stroker motor. With the increased throw, and with the modest boost, I feel the extra clamping effort will give some peace-of-mind. My experience with bracket racing stock block 440s showed evidence of cap walking, even with main studs. There must have been a reason that Fuel Racers used these girdles (The kind that bolts to the pan rail and the steel structure drops and crosses over the bottom of the engine, where set screws clamp against the bottom of the main caps.)

I am fortunate to own a pair of 1954 331 Hemi heads that were originally prepared for and by Gene Adams, including exhaust port brazing performed by Joe Mondello. With 5/32 stem valves, these heads have flowed over 373 CFM @ 28inches of vacuum. My intentions is to have them freshened up by McCracken (I hope I spelled his name correctly) to go on my 4" bore 354 block with aluminum 4 bolt main caps and the 2nd top fuel girdle I have.

I already have Arias pistons profiled to fit the 331 Hemi chambers, and the valve pockets have been cut to remove only the essential material, to try to maintain the compression. The Manley aluminum rods place the pistons just .060-.100 from the chamber roof.

My next big expense is to have Hogans sheet metal manifolds of Santa Maria build me a sheet metal tunnel ram for two 660 center squirt Holleys. If the cam guys' suggestion is followed, maybe I will opt for a pair of 1050 Dominators.

Fortunately, there has been a lot of unblown gas development for 2HP/cu in Hemis in the cam dept. Thanks to the Super Stock 68 Cudas and Darts. Seems to be some areas to look out for with the Intake/Exhaust valves proximity in keeping the fresh charge from escaping through the exhaust during overlap. and a lot of research and testing has been done by the 426 crowd. My hope is that the physics of the 2 generations of Hemi designs translate well enough for me in my 1st generation engine.

When this engine is ever finished, I am installing it in my old Frank Huzar RCS 170" FE rail. I am not totally old-school, for I have a custom built pair of Comp. Eliminator style of big tube race headers built for me (4-in 1 collector style). I know that Hibourns would look better, but this is my dime!

I would enjoy hearing from others about similar high output unblown gas Hemi experiences. Thanks, this is a great forum!
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

DblAdigger
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by DblAdigger » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:54 pm

Hey Andy, I've got "The PRUNE's" grandson Eric's T/F hemi out of "the Funny Digger" ( Hogan, Hume, and Johnson's original car) in the shop now. Getting it ready for Bakersfield in October. I've never run a hemi unblown but if I can be of assistance let me know.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.

budmspeeco
Posts: 133
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Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by budmspeeco » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:39 pm

I just got off the phone with Paul at ARP. I assume all those reading this is aware they are the leading fastener manufacturer in the free world. He said that the main bearing bore POSITIVELY need to be align honed if studs are used in place of bolts on main bearings. The bearing clearances WILL change !!! I have not read it, but he said it's even in their catalog that it needs to be done. I guess there are those that believe "myths" can be incorrect. I think I will stick to facts. That was a dollar's worth. Buddy
'48 anglia

cylontymany
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by cylontymany » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:57 pm

I would like some clarification to the tr waters girdle. First it doesnt tie the caps to the block just the caps themselves correct? So how can this be a benefit?

dan miller
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by dan miller » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:46 am

I believe that the Waters Girdle strengthens the heck out of things, especially in the X/Y planes (left/right, and fore/aft). For instance, if one main cap wants to move in any direction, it has to overcome the combined stability of all the other caps, and move them also.

This style stiffener is widely used on Fords, and I believe that some OEM applications utilize them.

Danny

TrWaters
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by TrWaters » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:22 pm

budmspeeco wrote:I just got off the phone with Paul at ARP. I assume all those reading this is aware they are the leading fastener manufacturer in the free world. He said that the main bearing bore POSITIVELY need to be align honed if studs are used in place of bolts on main bearings. The bearing clearances WILL change !!! I have not read it, but he said it's even in their catalog that it needs to be done. I guess there are those that believe "myths" can be incorrect. I think I will stick to facts. That was a dollar's worth. Buddy
Buddy, one "fact" is that every time there is a post about one of my products, you feel the need to argue. Another "fact" is that I have professional engine builders (not bolt manufacturers) who have measured the main bearing bores using both studs and bolts, with no change in the bore diameter.
And one more "fact".... I use the ARP hardware exclusively. Its the best. And yes, in section 4 of the main stud tech tips, it simply says "Have block align honed". Buddy, even you know that an align hone should be considered for any rebuild, especially using 50+ year old parts.

As I tell all my customers..... follow the advice of your engine builder, since he is the person who will ultimately be responsible for the finished product.

A side note: This last weekend at Carlisle I spoke with one of my customers who is headed to Bonneville in August with two early hemis...both equipped with my girdles. He has recently tested at the Maxton Monster Mile, and is aiming for the 200 mph mark when he hits the salt.
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

392heminut
Posts: 488
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Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by 392heminut » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:45 am

budmspeeco wrote:I just got off the phone with Paul at ARP. I assume all those reading this is aware they are the leading fastener manufacturer in the free world. He said that the main bearing bore POSITIVELY need to be align honed if studs are used in place of bolts on main bearings. The bearing clearances WILL change !!! I have not read it, but he said it's even in their catalog that it needs to be done. I guess there are those that believe "myths" can be incorrect. I think I will stick to facts. That was a dollar's worth. Buddy
I used the ARP main studs in my 392 and didn't align hone it. That engine has over 100 passes down the track with no problems at all. Granted, it's a mild street build and I only wind it to 6K.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Sealing girdle to block

Post by dan miller » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:59 am

The main caps REALLY move around in an unblown nitro early hemi, even with splayed 4 bolt caps.

They also move around pretty good in our Junior Fueler (800-850 hp, 9K+ rpm).

On our Engine Masters Challenge engine, with splayed 4 bolt main caps, they were OK at up to around 550 hp. Above 600, we're beginning to see a little movement. We've been hesitant to install a Waters Girdle, as we were a little concerned about windage. It might not be an issue, but we hadn't had the time to do a back to back dyno test. Windage issues or not (we're thinking maybe a couple of horsepower), it's far more important to have a solid foundation. In taking a very good look at things, I'm beginning to believe that windage is not an issue.

If 4 bolt splayed caps start moving around at 600 hp, then I'd suspect that stock caps, even with a fresh line bore and studs are probably moving around at about 450 hp. With stock bolts, probably 400 hp. A girdle seems to make a lot of sense, and is a very cost effective way to strengthen the lower end.

We've recently installed Waters Girdles on both the Junior Fueler and the EMC engines. We have a very clear understanding of where the EMC engine has transferred metal (tang sides #1 and #4 bearings), and we'll keep an eye on how well the girdle stiffens things up.

We just screwed together a new Junior Fueler block (NE56) with new Pro Gram main caps and a Waters Girdle, so we'll also be able to determine how well the girdle works at about the 850 hp level. The girdle bolted right on with no issues, other than having to massage the windage screen a little. This is a pretty shallow dragster pan, and I'd suspect that on a normal street deal, there would be no issues whatsoever. We also had to use 5" long studs due to the fact that the 4 bolt splayed caps are taller than stock caps.

Danny

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