Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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dan miller
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Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by dan miller » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:22 pm

The engine is coming together nicely. Planning on being on the dyno in a couple weeks.

I took some pix of the bottom end, utilizing Tom Waters very nice girdle. I don't know how to post pix, but I've asked Tom to post them here.

Heads should be going on over the weekend. Been building headers for the past several days. I'll ask Tom to post pix as the build progresses.

Danny

TrWaters
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by TrWaters » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:35 am

Image

Image
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

TrWaters
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge Update

Post by TrWaters » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:02 pm

Image
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

dan miller
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by dan miller » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:58 am

Here’s our final pull, corrected, in very good air with a conservative (13:1 A/F avg) tune up. The engine makes best hp and tq at very lean A/F ratios, 14:1 and leaner. Don't ask, we don't have the slightest whiff of a clue. Spent three very full days on the dyno, and came away empty headed. Literally. lol

hp @ 3000: 253.5, @ 7000: 608, avg 491.8 - peak 641 @ 6400/6500

tq @ 3000: 443.8, @ 7000: 455.8, avg 513 - peak 569 @ 5200

different pulls, best hp peaks - hp: 647 (1.77 per cid) , tq: 572 (1.57 per cid) (365 cid)

Engine appears solid. Very high valve spring pressures. We broke some intake springs (lots of cam lift plus 1.91 rockers) on the final dyno pull. Dodged the bullet - one less pull and they would have failed at EMC. We borrowed some springs from a friends engine, but the springs are far more (300+/800+) than we need. They were the only things we had, and no time to order others, as we were pulling off the dyno and headed out. Probably more spring than the pushrods and rockerarms are happy with, but we had no other choice.

We can get a higher score on the first pull by leaning it out, but it falls off more in the two subsequent pulls. We don’t exactly know the happy medium, but have a three day road trip to get if all figured out. lol

All in all, we’re very happy with the engine, but sure wish we were smart enough to make the Webers meter properly. We have the A/F close, and have enough Weber Savvy to move it (more or less) up/down. We’re rich/weak at the hit, but that might be partially due to too much camshaft. We wanted it to peak at around 6500, and nailed it, so we were hesitant to stab in a smaller camshaft. It would probably have bolstered the low end at the expense of top end. Rob Peter to pay Paul. We could have tried the other cam, but it would have required more pulls (engine has 99 since the last freshen up), and if it didn’t improve the score, we would have to swap back and show up at Lima with an untested/unfired engine.

I have to do a little more exhaust work, as the Hot Heads setup puts the mufflers a little closer than the minimum 20" apart. I spent two full weeks (around 100 hours) making headers and collectors. As an afterthought, we bolted on a set of standard Hot Heads street rod 2" headers ---- and made more power. Am I ever thoroughly, totally and completely pissed! Mine had killer merge collectors, minimum radius bends, equal lengths to within .500", etc. I'm outa the header business. For Sure!

I also need to Loctite a bunch of stuff (including idle mixture screws), install a water bleed valve (hard to get the water system to prime), install the flywheel, drain the oil and filter, double check all fasteners, change the carburetor linkage pull point (last minute rules advisory), etc. Other than that, we’re going to give the lash and torque a final going over, and put it in the crate.

Leaving Friday @ 0-dark-30.

If any of you can make the EMC, you will really enjoy it. Guaranteed.



Danny

speedicusmaximus
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by speedicusmaximus » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:15 am

Good luck with the contest ! We'll be thinking of you on the day. Post any info as and when you get chance, and thanks for what you've done so far.... 8) :P

Mike :wink:
Beep ! Beep !

TrWaters
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by TrWaters » Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:54 pm

Image

Image
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

oldngood
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by oldngood » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:10 pm

dan miller wrote:hp @ 3000: 253.5, @ 7000: 608, avg 491.8 - peak 641 @ 6400/6500

tq @ 3000: 443.8, @ 7000: 455.8, avg 513 - peak 569 @ 5200

different pulls, best hp peaks - hp: 647 (1.77 per cid) , tq: 572 (1.57 per cid) (365 cid)
Danny

I take it this is a 354 + .060" = 365 CID ??

pretty darn respectable

good luck, nice effort

locomotivebreath
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by locomotivebreath » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:58 pm

Pretty impressive numbers. Keep us posted on the progress.

Bored&Stroked
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by Bored&Stroked » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:02 pm

Way cool! Why did you guys decide to run Webers versus a really nice 4-barrel setup (assuming there is a manifold that would be good enough)? I love the look of Webers, but would think a more traditional carb setup would be easier to tune. Also, did RAS make your rocker arms? I'm running RAS rockers on my Donovan heads, but they are just 1.5 ratio . . . was wondering the thought behind the high-ratio rockers (other than valve/lift acceleration on the opening ramps). I also noticed that you have crank scrapers - who made those for you . . . or did you do them?

Great job - lots of HP for a carb motor - I'd love to see you win EMC. I hope to make 700-800 on my blown motor . . . the dyno will tell!
57' 392 Hemi -- much to learn!

Paul
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by Paul » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:08 am

best hp peaks - hp: 647 (1.77 per cid) , tq: 572 (1.57 per cid) (365 cid) Now that makes some of us 354 fans proud.
I noticed you didn't just throw a bunch of money at a "super high $" Inglese EFI Weber set up. Never seen those crank scrapers either. I'm also curious about the radical rocker ratio.
I love the webers on there. If I saw that anywhere, I couldn't pass it up.

TrWaters
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi UPDATE

Post by TrWaters » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:09 pm

The hemi of Gene Adams/Dan Miller/Hot Heads has made it to the finals. They qualified in 3rd place in the initial dyno runs.
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

392heminut
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by 392heminut » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:36 pm

Excellent! :)
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

oldngood
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi UPDATE

Post by oldngood » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:23 am

TrWaters wrote:The hemi of Gene Adams/Dan Miller/Hot Heads has made it to the finals. They qualified in 3rd place in the initial dyno runs.


good show- I'm wondering what it would do with a single 4 bbl.

Bored&Stroked
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by Bored&Stroked » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:37 am

These guys tried just about every manifold/carb combination known to man . . . been working on it for the last year. TR Waters sent me some pictures of their different combos . . . including custom sheet metal intakes with dual fours. What I don't know is if you're allowed to run sheet-metal intakes in this years EMC - I know you weren't before. I'll bet the combination they're running gave them the best Dyno numbers -- from the 3,000 to 7,000 RPM range (I guess they average the numbers across this range, don't just pick the highest!).

Great stuff . . . hope they can coax a bit more out of it!
57' 392 Hemi -- much to learn!

TrWaters
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Congratulations

Post by TrWaters » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:01 pm

A great job with the early hemi by Gene Adams, Dan Miller, and HotHeads.

Friday October 9th Engine Masters Challenge Finals Updates and Results Sponsored by Rottler


2009 JEG's Engine Masters Challenge - Friday, October 9, 2009 Sponsored by Rottler

Final Standings

1st - Team #5 Jon Kaase Racing (Almost Kaase)/Ford - 2,632.8

2nd - Team #10 B.E.S Racing Engines/Chevy - 2,631.4

3rd- Team #2 Hot Heads Research/Gene Adams Performance/Chrysler - 2,598.2

4th - Team #17 Performance Crankshaft, Inc/Chevy - 2,598.0

5th - Team #4 School of Automotive Machinists (Entry #2)/Ford - 2,585.4

6th - Team #1 Jon Kaase Racing/Ford - 2,583.2

Going into final eliminations we got much of what we intended with the new format - probably the widest variety of engine we have ever seen in final eliminations. That list in reverse order of qualifying position included the Kaasse Boss Ford big block, the School of Automotive Machinists 400M Cleveland, the Hot Heads / Gene Adams early Chrysler Hemi, BES Racing's LS Chevrolet, and the Kaase Cleveland. With fuel injection made legal for the first time, along with the inclusion of late model domestic V8's and muti-carbs, we had the wildest show ever. Interestingly, in the inaugural year for fuel injection, we had an all-carb line-up in final eliminations, with Tom Habrzyk's APE entry making the best showing for EFI. Opening the door to multi-carbs resulted in a wild array of systems, from the single four barrel system used by Tony Bishchoff, the impressive Hot Heads / Adams quad webber-style carbs, and the variety of tunnel rams run by the other competitors.

In eliminations we run the qualifying engines from lowest qualifier to the top finisher, leading to the top qualifier. In last year's event we made a change to keeping the score silent right up through the elimination field, so competitors have no idea of the outcome until the final engine has run. Without knowing the number to beat, each team is giving it all they have vying for the title of "Engine Master." When all the dust settled, Jon Kaase Racing inched out a victory by just a fraction, taking top honors over second place finisher BES Racing by just 1.4 points! The rest of the field fell in line in the same order as qualifying, with Hot Heads / Gene Adams Performance finishing third, Performance Crankshaft in fourth, the School of Automotive Machinists in fifth, and Jon Kaase's Boss in sixth position.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

Bored&Stroked
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by Bored&Stroked » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:30 pm

God Bless the Early Chrysler Hemi . . . and folks like this that keep it front, center and making HP! Can't wait to fire up my blown 392!
57' 392 Hemi -- much to learn!

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by dan miller » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:36 pm

Hello guys

We had a good time at the EMC, and were very pleased with the result. There's more in the old girl, and we'll be back next year. We believe that the displacement (365 cid, 4.012" X 3.607") is right in the zone for our cylinder head flow. We're going to work on the exhaust port and valve (making both smaller), and plan on coming up with something very special for the induction. People liked it, and it (interestingly) was by all accounts the loudest engine at the Challenge.

It's VERY important to remember that it's guys like Tom Waters and Bob Walker that are keeping the early hemi alive. Be sure to patronize them. They are absolutely not in this deal for the money. They're in it for the love of the old hemi's.

Another person to patronize is Bill Mewhinney, who is just starting a line of intake manifolds. His first effort is an absolutely first rate dual plane DeSoto short deck 4 bbl manifold. He's currently working on a high deck version of the same. I'll post his information in the next day or so.

Danny

oldngood
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by oldngood » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:58 pm

congrats, those are bodacious HP/torque numbers

it would be really interesting to see what a low-buck 331/354/392 type engine using stock parts would do, i.e. "555" heads, cast iron intake/exhaust manifolds, 4bbl Holley, and maybe a modern solid flat tappet cam, and 9.25 CR. For how popular these engines are, and how long they've been around, there's almost zero hot rodding info database on how to soup them up naturally aspirated. No doubt it was done large at one time, but all the info seems to be lost to history for naturally aspirated early Hemis. Kiekhaefer dominated NASCAR for 2 years with 331/354 yet we know almost nothing of his combinations, i.e. cam specs, HP output, etc. It's like an ancient hidden secret or something.

polyspheric
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by polyspheric » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:58 am

Yesterday's "race" cam is today's door stop.

DblAdigger
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by DblAdigger » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:44 pm

Not when you are building Cackle Car motors they aren't.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.

polyspheric
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by polyspheric » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:07 pm

Well, that makes for an interesting choice: what do you wish to achieve:
1. win, or
2. save money

392heminut
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by 392heminut » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:48 pm

There's no 'win' aspect to a Cackle Car, they don't race!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

oldngood
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Re: Engine Masters Challenge early hemi

Post by oldngood » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:56 am

I'd like to know what Kiekhaefer's combination was, because he won everything in sight for 2 years with 331/354 Hemi engines, in NASCAR. He won so much that the fans started to "boo" his cars for always winning, so he obviously knew how to make the power.

Those engines had to be banging on 500 HP at least, or more. I have a feeling that generation took a lot of their tricks and secrets, to the grave with them.

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