Daily driver 354 vs 383

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

Moderators: scottm, TrWaters, 392heminut

big66440
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 pm

Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by big66440 »

First of all hello,I'm new to the forum and pretty much new to the early hemi scene, anyway, I have been planning my next project and came across making the decision of dropping in my 354 Hemi or 383 into a 71 swb Dodge D100 pick up truck,the goal of the project is for a daily driver with tons of torque,good gas mileage and a liveable idle. I ve gone thorugh the whole "why not a 360,or 440?" ideas and just want something different,I figured the 354 has a longer stroke than the 383(and even the 360) can be bored to 4" and is known for making huge torque,then again the 383 has more cubes to begin with,bigger bore,front mounted distributor,ext oil pump and all those other little things that make BB mopars easy to live with.Heres the layout 56' 354 engine 9:1 CR,HH DP 4bbl intake, 650 cfm carb,port matched heads,BB chevy water pump, custom cam (clay smith or isky),A518 OD tranny with lock up converter and either 3.55 or 3.90 gears. The 383 would have 9:1 CR,port matched and template ported 906's,magnum cam,performer intake,650 cfm carb with the same tranny and rear gears. I've already done a rough comparrison of the price to build the two and of course the hemi's a little more costly but not by much if I stick with cast pistons.Any info or suggestions are welcome,thanks.
George
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by George »

Either would be good with the 383 a bit cheaper & more CID. Nothing like the WOW factor of a Hemi! 4" is max overbore on a 354 & you probably should sonic check before ordering pistons. I'd go .030 & call it good. Besides here, check out www.hothemiheads.com & the HAMB.
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

From a realistic standpoint the 383 is the way to go for your app. If you don't have heads already then save yourself the effort and get some 346's with hard exhausts (installed after) and have the holes opened up to 2.14/1.81 with a bowl hog by the machine shop and hand blend. You get the same or better flow than the obsolete template porting method.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/tech ... index.html
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/tech ... index.html
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/tech ... index.html

Of course either engine is fine and will make about the same power. You don't need a custom cam. The Comp XE series cams (I like the 262 for a driver) are good for the 383 and the new HH grinds have more lift for the 354 than PAW or the older Howard's stuff. You definitely need an AOD. My 1968 Fargo pickup had 3.55 gears and it was pushing 3000 rpm at highway speeds. That thing was alot of fun to drive. Let me know if you want to see some pictures of it. Here's my killer 383/438 I built a few years ago.

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big66440
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by big66440 »

Man thats a killer looking 383,theres no doubt in my mind 383's can put out some serious power but I'm trying to weigh out the difference in how soon each engine will deliver the torque,the long stroke and headflow of the hemi looks really good in that department I would definatley stick to .030 over using Hot Heads cast pistons to keep the cost down which should give me a 357",I've had experience with the durability of big blocks,are early hemis just as reliable on the street in stop and go traffic?etc
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

Thanks. That engine is a 10.0:1 525+HP monster that runs on pump premium. Not really a driver motor but could be with a cam change. Early hemis are super-reliable as long as they're built right. Don't skimp on stuff that should be replaced like valve springs, rod bolts, main bolts and pistons. I'd replace the valves & pushrods too if it's in the budget. Most of the Chrysler rebuild parts are inexpensive now. Based on the dyno results people have posted over the years the early hemi engine in general consistently puts out the same HP and torque as a similarly cammed and carbed engine with 20-30 more CID or 25-40 more CID in the case of the 392. Mild cammed 354's will easily make 375 HP. Don't forget the exhaust. There's someone on the HAMB that is making the 2.5" center dump truck manifolds for the same price or less than the originals. They're more reliable in a daily driver than headers.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by NE57 »

My2cents. If you love the truck and having a hemi in it would float yer boat, do that. If you're more like, "Well, I've got this truck and I've got these motors lying around..." then I'd say use the wedge and save the 354 for something special. I'm not saying the truck is not special , to each his own.

If you had no vehicle but just the two motors, would your first pick for the hemi be that truck?
big66440
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by big66440 »

Definatley the hemi,I've been a huge fan of the performance and looks of HEMI'S as far back as I can remember,I was going to save my 354,supercharge it and shoot nitrous in it, drop it in an A body and haul butt but my budgets waaaay too tight for that right now,I have a friend with a 392 that he bought and doesn't know what to do with it now, guess i'll twist his arm into a trade or sale and fix that one up to be a terror, does anyone make tri Y headers for early hemi's? I know hot heads makes headers but they seem too big (2" primaries,3 1/2" collectors) for my application.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by NE57 »

If a Hemi A body was your dream, take a look at this thread...

http://thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1198

I'm doing something similar, 392 in a 66 Dart. I don't know the weight of your truck but its got to be heavier than an A body. My dart now weighs 2790 with the /6. Add in for the heavier motor and it should maybe be around 3100+. Less weight means you could keep the motor mild and relatively inexpensive yet still get a thrill. And some A bodies are cheap.


And look at this

http://www.sweptline.com/tech/engine4.html
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

This is my old 1968 Fargo. I put it together back from the body shop in December, no engine, tranny, interior, wiring, etc in 2.5 weeks, in 35°F weather (inside, it was about 0°F outside) and drove it 2000 mile from Calgary, AB, Canada to Memphis TN towing my 1971 Valiant pro streeter. Helluva break-in! I wanted to put a 354 in it but couldn't afford it at the time. The 360 did well.

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George
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by George »

Saw a late 80s Dakota with a '54 331 in it, looked good!
big66440
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by big66440 »

Thats a sweet looking truck,how were the floors and the doors? mine has all the common rust problems,I'm a member of sweptline.org forum as well,(looks real similar to this one) and theres tons of great info to be found, theres another sweptline website were an early hemi swap is explained step by step dont know the model year of the truck but i know it's a 392, and i've seen a few at the spring fling car show in woodley park, so i guess its not uncommon,just has to be tracked down.
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

big66440 wrote:Thats a sweet looking truck,how were the floors and the doors? mine has all the common rust problems,I'm a member of sweptline.org forum as well,(looks real similar to this one) and theres tons of great info to be found, theres another sweptline website were an early hemi swap is explained step by step dont know the model year of the truck but i know it's a 392, and i've seen a few at the spring fling car show in woodley park, so i guess its not uncommon,just has to be tracked down.
An early hemi swap used to be very common in sweptlines. It's pretty simple. Do you have 318 mounts for your truck? You can flip them around and massage them to work with a hemi. My rockers were replaced, the doors were fine, the floor had some pinholing but not terrible. I sold it to a friend of mine in Mississippi about 7 years ago before I moved to Florida. He still drives it every day.
oldngood
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by oldngood »

big66440 wrote:First of all hello,I'm new to the forum and pretty much new to the early hemi scene, anyway, I have been planning my next project and came across making the decision of dropping in my 354 Hemi or 383 into a 71 swb Dodge D100 pick up truck,the goal of the project is for a daily driver with tons of torque,good gas mileage and a liveable idle. I ve gone thorugh the whole "why not a 360,or 440?" ideas and just want something different,I figured the 354 has a longer stroke than the 383(and even the 360) can be bored to 4" and is known for making huge torque,then again the 383 has more cubes to begin with,bigger bore,front mounted distributor,ext oil pump and all those other little things that make BB mopars easy to live with.Heres the layout 56' 354 engine 9:1 CR,HH DP 4bbl intake, 650 cfm carb,port matched heads,BB chevy water pump, custom cam (clay smith or isky),A518 OD tranny with lock up converter and either 3.55 or 3.90 gears. The 383 would have 9:1 CR,port matched and template ported 906's,magnum cam,performer intake,650 cfm carb with the same tranny and rear gears. I've already done a rough comparrison of the price to build the two and of course the hemi's a little more costly but not by much if I stick with cast pistons.Any info or suggestions are welcome,thanks.

The 383 is a better, more modern engine and will make more power/torque due to larger bore- there's a lot more parts available for the 383, and the circle track guys love those 383's- they are FAST.

The 354 will look cooler and give you some hemi-prestige, but it will make less power than the 383 per dollar spent.

the wider bore spacing and bigger bores give the advantage to the 383, and it's a huge advantage. You'll also have to work harder to make that early hemi fit the truck chassis, but it should be easier than a car swap because trucks generally have more room in the engine bay to begin with
big66440
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by big66440 »

I dont mean to sound like a jerk but what does the bore spacing have to do with an engines performance output? I had my bets on the 383 making more power,but what about gas mileage? once I bore the hemi .030 over it will have a bore size of 3.97 and a displacement of 357 still 29 cubic inches smaller than the 383 if I bore it .030 plus the hemi will have a longer stroke, I calculated the expenses on both engines and they are not too far different,thanks to hot heads and parts from TR waters I can adapt alot of the small block stuff that I have lying around my garage and save $$$,is it possible to get good gas mileage from this hemi?
George
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by George »

big66440 wrote:,is it possible to get good gas mileage from this hemi?
Why not, provided you are willing to keep the cam relativly mild & go for, say, 3.25 gears with that O/D tranny. I have a Crown Vic P.I. with 351/AOD/3.08 gears so you can go low on the number.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by NE57 »

If mileage is the concern I might think about a smaller carb. Get a stronger signal to the primaries. I don't know if your manifold is adaptable but maybe a spreadbore? Especially if you have OD. Your cruising rpm is going to be low.

I had a 350 Camaro(so shoot me!) w a spreadbore holley(don't remember the cfm, sorry), 262(adv) cam, 3.23 gears(I think) and the mileage was acceptable, say 15-17. But when stomped on, it moved. I think the tri-y headers helped some with the mileage as they are oriented to low rpm..

If you're looking for higher than 20mpg I think you'd need fuel injection and a much fatter wallet.
big66440
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by big66440 »

I'd be using the hot heads dual plane 4bbl intake, I read a posting on this forum from another member explaining how the new 5.7's have quench pads much like the poly's and I can only assume that they were made this way to have a quench effect and atomize the fuel, which should automatically increase power and mileage, the wedge head has the advantage of this quench pad but dont flow as good,the hemi head doesn't but it flows alot better I'm trying to weigh out the differences and see what I can come up with.
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

Hemis cam down surprisingly well. You'd think they'd be low end dogs with the huge ports but they're very common industrial engines. Don't bet on 20 mpg in a truck with either motor. I had a 1983 Dodge swb with a 1966 383, carter AVS and highway gears. It got around 18 on the highway, 15 in the city, 10-11 at best when I had a little fun with it :D
oldngood
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:14 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by oldngood »

the ports may look "huge" but they really aren't- the 354 and 392 hemis had 145-150 cc intake ports, the 1954-55 331 hemis had 175 cc intake ports- to give a good comparison, a Pontiac 350 and 350 Chevy small block has 150 cc intake ports

unlike the later 426, the early hemis were primarily built to be passenger car engines, not racing engines. So their porting is modest at best, it isn't small, but it certainly isn't huge either. By comparison a BBC 454 LS6 or Ford 429 had cavernous 300+ cc intake ports, nearly twice as large as an early hemi
392heminut
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:16 pm

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by 392heminut »

oldngood wrote:the ports may look "huge" but they really aren't- the 354 and 392 hemis had 145-150 cc intake ports, the 1954-55 331 hemis had 175 cc intake ports- to give a good comparison, a Pontiac 350 and 350 Chevy small block has 150 cc intake ports

unlike the later 426, the early hemis were primarily built to be passenger car engines, not racing engines. So their porting is modest at best, it isn't small, but it certainly isn't huge either. By comparison a BBC 454 LS6 or Ford 429 had cavernous 300+ cc intake ports, nearly twice as large as an early hemi

As has been said by others, you're comparing apples to oranges here on port sizes. If the port lengths and shapes aren't relative to each other (which a big block chevy and a ford 429 certainly aren't when compared to a 354) then the comparative cc sizes have no meaning! That's kind of like comparing the volume of a 3" long piece of 3" exhaust tubing to the volume of a 12" long piece of 2" exhaust tubing. The 2" tubing will hold more volume, but we all know the 3" tubing will flow more!

As for mileage, these old hemis are capable of just as good of milage as any other engine, it's all in how you set them up. I got 15 MPG from my 392 when it was in my Cuda on the Interstate driving 75 mph. This was with a .480 lift cam, two Edelbrock 600 carbs with progressive linkage, a 3500 stall converter and 3.23 gears. It was also on I-10 in Arizona with the temps right at 100 deg.!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

Yes, the port volume is only smaller becasue they're short, the openings are larger than average even for some big block engine families.
speedicusmaximus
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 11:31 am
Location: UK

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by speedicusmaximus »

If it was me, I'd say the deciding factor is how you want to use the vehicle.

I'd probably go with the 383 if it to use almost every day. If it's just for weekends, or sunny days, then go with the Hemi !

In favour of the 383, then you can take it out to 432, or even 496 with Muscle Motors' (Lancing, MI ?) stroker kits. Others do the 432 version too. You've also got one of those real long, twin four barrel (?) ram-intakes, that Chrysler put out during the early '60's, that would add some sparkle under the bonnet if you're missing the Hemi.

Mike
Beep ! Beep !
wayfarer
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by wayfarer »

I'll mention two items not yet covered. 1) The price for a Hemi to TF adapter will be in the $500 range. Add it to your 'package' costs. 2) Unless you spend alot of money, there is no easy way to get an OD trans for the B-RB engines.

You can save alot of money on the 354 if you keep the stock intake and water pump assemblies. In a truck, saving a few pounds of engine weight is not always worth $$$, otherwise you could use a 360....
The stock intake is probably one of the best dual plane designs ever made for a oem application. Enlarge the throttle bores to match the Holley base pattern and put your favorite carb on top. A small bolt pattern adapter is needed for the Holley carb. Cutting the new holes is considerably cheaper than a new manifold, and it will work just as well. Also, rebuilding the stock water pump is alot less cost than all of the aluminum eye candy, and works just the way it was designed to work. The stock wp assembly also make mounting an alternator and ps pump easy.

.
www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com
Early Hemi Parts and Pieces,

INVENTORY CLEARANCE IN PROGRESS. See website for details.
oldngood
Posts: 121
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Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by oldngood »

johnny5 wrote:Yes, the port volume is only smaller becasue they're short, the openings are larger than average even for some big block engine families.


The proof is in the actual checking of the intake port volumes- I've checked many.

early 1951-53 Hemi heads had smallish 115 cc intake ports

the 1954-55 Hemi heads had 175 cc intake ports

the 392 Hemi heads had 145 cc intake ports and are noticeably smaller

the Chrysler poly heads had 150 cc intake ports, so they have more potential for horsepower than the early 1951-53 heads in stock form, and the proof is in the factory horsepower ratings- it's all relative

the same goes for the Dodge hemis- the 270 Dodge hemi heads I checked were only 100 cc intake ports- yet the 325 Dodge poly heads had 125 cc intake ports- 25% more volume and more HP potential

now take a look at the 454 LS6 heads, 426 Hemi heads, or Boss 429 Ford heads- even if you made adjustments for the longer ports, the more modern engines have a much larger average port cross section than the early Hemis has, in stock form- and the new engines make more HP per CID than the early Hemis did

look at what Chrysler did with the 426 Hemi, and compare those ports to the early 354/392- no comparison, the 426 is much larger

it's common sense, this is not rocket science
johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: Daily driver 354 vs 383

Post by johnny5 »

You're missing the point. If a head has less material that is made up by the intake manifold like the FE Ford then the volume will look kinda small even with a very large port. Besides this is way off topic. If you want to debate port size and flow of different engine families then it should be in a new post.
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