What's your street carbueration?

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

What's your street carbueration?

Postby NE57 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:55 pm

What's your carb(s) setup?
How do you like it?
What problems did you have, if any and how'd you get around it?
Would you change anything if you did it over again?
Relavent engine details would be good, thanks.

I keep waffling. On the one hand I like HotHeads recommendation of a Weiand with 2 390 Holleys for driveability, its simple...bolt it together and go, but I like the looks of their single plane manifold more, maybe with 2 Edelbrock 500s? On the other hand I'm wondering about something different like a fabbed intake manifold. Does a tube cross ram sound exotic enough? (yeah I know, dream on, but if I set my stubborn streak to it I just might accomplish it). But in the end it has to work for the street so your actual experience is helpful.

Thanks much.

johnny5
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: St Charles, MO

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby johnny5 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:39 pm

Either one sounds like a good combination to me. The 500's are simpler and sold as a direct bolt-on pair for dual-quad apps but the Holley's have a meaner look to them and aren't too hard to tune either. I've always wanted to try a Cunningham style 4x1bbl intake with some Carter Y's for the Desoto, we'll see....

George
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby George » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:30 am

NE57 wrote: Does a tube cross ram sound exotic enough? .

Saw a goofy photo once. Guy had a 2V intake. Made a plate that fit on it & had a long ram style tube with a 2 bl running to each OEM intake bore hole, so a 2X2 long ram intake on a 51-3 331.

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby dan miller » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:03 am

I don't have any street experience, but the Hot Heads dual plane sure worked well on our Engine Masters Challenge engine. I'm a fan of large carburetors. On a 335 cid (slight overbore, slight destroke), the bigger the carburetor, the more power - start to finish. We ended up with a 950 Holley, and made 550 hp (10.5:1 compression, 245@ .050 flat tappet cam, 320 cfm heads with 1.063" valves, air cleaner, mufflers - absolutely something runable on the street) .

I'd seriously consider a set of Webers, now that Empi is selling Chinese repops of the Weber 48IDA. They make very good power, and they're responsive beyond belief.

I don't have any prices, but Hot Heads offers Weber Manifolds, Empi sells 51.5 mm IDA carburetors (bored out 48IDA's), and Pierce Manifolds sells a nice throttle linkage setup (under $100, as I recall). Just guessing, but off the top of my head, I'd suspect that you could pull the deal off for around $2000. That's a lot of coin, but it's all new stuff, and it really works. A new dual four barrel manifold, two new carburetors, linkage, etc. would probably cost over $1000. The extra $1000 for the Weber setup would be money well spent.

The key aspect of jetting the Webers is getting the correct emulsion tubes. W spent three FULL days on Pro Machine's dyno), and ended up using F16 emulsion tubes. We spent $907.44 (mostly jobber) on emulsion tubes - four sets at well over $100 a set), air and fuel jets, air and fuel air correction jets, Pro Velocity stacks, AN fittings, hose, etc.

If anyone purchases a Weber setup, I'd be pleased to offer whatever help I can. As I said, the F16 emulsion tubes are the key, and you'll probably not have to purchase any jets, as the EMPI kit comes with a couple sets of extra air and fuel jets, and they can be reamed out.

I believe that Tom Waters has some pix. I'm computer illiterate, so maybe he will post one.

My buddy, Steve Phillips (owner of Wolfgang International - VW stuff) can fix you up with a set of Webers. If you get serious, let me know, and I'll hammer on him to treat you right.

Danny

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby dan miller » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:26 am

By the way, we also did the mess around with a Hot Heads single plane with several tops. Same day, same engine, same dyno. It ran better than the single plane, but not by all that much. I can't remember the numbers, and the dyno sheets are not handy. I believe that with Holley 660's it made about 20 more horsepower @ 6500 rpm, and about 10 more average. This shows how good the dual plane manifold is. I purchased an Edelbrock SBC RPM Air Gap, and compared the runner configuration, lengths, elevations, etc., and honestly believe that the Hot Heads is a nicer piece. Obviously, one fits a SBC and one an early hemi, so no direct comparison is possible, but the one thing that really stood out is that the floors of the lower runners were lower than the floors of the runners in the heads, so the fuel had to flow uphill into the ports.

We tried a pair of Holley 660's, a pair of Edelbrock AFB's, and bolted on a Hilborn 2 hole injector. The carburetors made about the same power, and the injectors made somewhat - maybe 10 or 20 hp - more.

We then swapped to a sheet metal manifold. Not much change with the carburetors, but it made a bunch more with the injectors.

Bottom line: for a dual 4 barrel deal, the Hot Heads is a very good manifold.

Danny

P.S. Brandon Hamilton (Hamilton Intakes) makes killer "U-Fab" manifolds (4, 6, and 8 carburetors). I don't believe he's made one yet with the Holley 2300 pattern, but I'm positive he would if you wanted one. Four Holley 500 cfm two barrels might be something to think about.

NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby NE57 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:29 pm

I've been salivating for a set of webers for awhile. Can't do it now but maybe as an upgrade in the future.

Do webers allow you to tune each venturi seperately or do tuning mods affect both barrels the same?

Neil

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby dan miller » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:53 am

Yes, you can tune each venturi separately, and you can also size them differently. Danny

mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby mart » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:47 am

I don't know how practical this would be today
or how it would compare to contemporary
street set-up, but back circa 1971-72-73 this
worked gangbusters on the street for us.....

A buddy and I built a 354 for his 'street racer'
'65 Studebaker sedan. The engine was built
very much on a shoestring budget, using
mostly used and obsolete, cast off, race car
parts and consisted of a '58 354 truck block,
crank and rods, with '55 331 heads, ported
and fitted with stock 392 valves, .060 over
11 to 1 Jahns pistons and a 550 lift Isky roller
cam of unknown duration, that was originally
intended for a short track 'dirt modified' race
car. We tried several carb and intake set-ups
including a Weiand low-rise dual quad intake
with a pair of AFBs, a stock '56 Chrysler
single-plane dual-quad intake with homemade
3 inch tall carb spacers, first with AFBs and
later, with a pair of sideways mounted 660
cfm Holley center-squirters. The set-up that
worked best and we used the longest though,
ended up being a factory 'dual-plane' single
4-bbl intake from a '58 Imperial that we first
port-matched to the heads and then hogged
out the plenum,removing the center divider.
On top of that we used a 1 inch tall, open
carb spacer, first with a borrowed 750 cfm
Holley double pumper - and finally with a
25-dollar swap-meet sourced 950 cfm Holley
3-bbl! Believe it or not, after a bit of
experimentation to get it dialed-in with the
right jets and secondary diaphragm spring,
the 950 cfm 3-bbl worked better than anything
else we had tried. In street trim, with
mufflers, with the modified 392 intake and
3-bbl carb, the car ran pretty consistent 12.8s
at about 107 mph and uncorked would go 12.2s
at about 110 mph. That might not sound all
that impressive nowadays, but that was just
plain flying for a street-driven car back in 1973
Consider too that not only was the car street-driven,
but with the hemi in it, it was nose-heavy and
thus traction-limited, weighed a full 3450 lbs, only
had a 'small" 365 cubic inch engine and further, a
'65 Sude sedan has aerodynamics just slightly worse
than a brick! I know that Holley 3-bbls are scarce
nowadays and are considerd to be basically, just
novelties and totally obsolete, but If I was
building another 354 or 392 today, I'd probably
at least try one again. It 'd be interesting to see
how one would work and compare with some of
the more modern carb and intake set-ups.

mart
====================================================

wayfarer
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Central Ory-gun

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby wayfarer » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:25 pm

I'll second some of Marts observations. We have been using stock manifolds for many years, long before any alum parts were available. Open the throttle bores to match the Holley base (1- 11/16") and if you use a Holley put a bolt pattern adapter on top. Over the years we have had good success with 780-850 cfm carbs. Not sexy, none of that shiney alum eye candy stuff, just good performance from basic parts.
If you need something exotic go to a custom manifold with the Webers.
www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com
Early Hemi Parts and Pieces,
Complete machine shop services
Trans Adapters, Tech info

392heminut
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:16 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby 392heminut » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:08 am

I totally agree with Mart and Wayfarer on the factory 4 barrel intake. I had one on my 392 with a 1/2" aluminum spacer to adapt it to the Holley. The center divider was removed and the plenum opening blended into the adapter plate. I later changed it out for a Hot Heads dual plane intake and found there was very little, if any, difference in performance. I'm not trying to take anything away from the Hot Heads intake, it's a very well made manifold and a great performer, but if you're on a budget the factory cast iron piece with a couple of easy mods is a great intake. My son is still using my old factory manifold on his 354!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

krooser
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:21 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby krooser » Thu May 27, 2010 6:57 pm

Those fabricated manifolds look cool but remember without any factory heat they are a bugger on cold days and any day without warming up the engine before you drive.

I like the simplicity of the Carter AFB and Edelbrock designs. Many MOPARS used AFB's from the factory.... I don't dislike Holleys and have owned many of them but the AFB-style carb is pretty simple and a good product.

moparjack
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:19 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby moparjack » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:19 pm

I basically just ask this same question on HotHeads.
I am currently running 2-600 cfm Edelbrocks on stock Weinand intake. Engine is
30 over with mild cam, 727 TF tranny, 2:73 rear. The car (48 DeSoto/4 dr) is a
driver, NOT a race car. I want reliable/ streetable. I think that was the original
question here, but it went to racing, not streetable :-? .
Switching from 2-4's to 1-4, not an option.

Jack

mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby mart » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:15 am

moparjack wrote:"I basically just ask this same question on HotHeads.
I am currently running 2-600 cfm Edelbrocks on stock
Weinand intake. Engine is 30 over with mild cam,
727 TF tranny, 2:73 rear. The car (48 DeSoto/4 dr)
is a driver, NOT a race car.
I want
reliable/ streetable. I think that was the original
question here, but it went to racing, not streetable
:-?.Switching from 2-4's to 1-4, not an option.
"
- Jack

------------------------------
I don't mean to be a smartass here.....but if you've already
got a Weiand two-4-bbl intake with 2 Edelbrock (nee Carter
AFB) carbs that you're apparently happy with - and further,
you state that - quote - "switching from 2-4's to a 1-4 bbl
carb and intake
"
is "not an option", then
what is your actual question???? Being a low-rise, inline "log"
type intake, the Weiand intake is probably not ideal to begin
with - and going by the rest of your combo too - ie - a near
stock 392, with a mild cam, auto trans, 2 .73 gears, in a
relatively heavy and strictly street-driven car - two 4-bbls
with 1200 cfm worth of carburation - vacuum or 'air-flow'
operated secondaries or not - is definitly overkill for what
you need. You asked what would be better and the general
consensus from most of us "old farts" here, who have "been
there and done that
" was almost universally, to use single
a 4-bbl stock or aftermarket "dual plane" - ie - "non-log" type
manifold - and a single 600 to 800 cfm vacuum secondary
carb. What you've got will work after a fashion and I'm sure
it looks sexy when you pop the hood, but I think your original
question was what would work better and/or be best for your
application.

mart
==========================================================

NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby NE57 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:50 am

Since i first asked many months ago I came upon a new Weiand 2x4 and some 400 cfm AFBs that were cheap so i got them. This will give 800 total cfm but with the smallest primary venturis, hopefully the combo will work once the carbs are properly set up. The smaller venturi should aid in driveability along with open crossover in the stock head.

haven't figured gearing/stall yet, we'll see.

moparjack
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:19 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby moparjack » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:28 pm

mart, I understand what you are saying.
I guess what I want may not be obtainable with the 2-4 set up, but yeah, I do love the WOW factor with that set up :) .

I want the WOW factor and driveability, which I reckon is wishful thinking. I know about the 'old fart' thing. I have been wanting a hot rod since I saw picture of my first hot rod was when I was about 10 years old (that was 56 years ago). I had to wait until I was in my mid 50's before I could afford to build one.

Back to my question, what would be a 'much' better carb set up? I have read 390's, or NE57 have posted he is using 400 cfm. I know I am way over carbed. Hard to start when hot, then when it does start runs like pure ole d crap for a spell. I appreciate your opinions, and hey, "us old farts" can't ever be considered as smartasses, just experienced :lol: .

Jack

hemi4t
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:04 am
Location: Hartland, Michigan

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby hemi4t » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:55 pm

I'm running the weiand 2X4 intake with two 600 Eldebrock carbs and using progressive linkage on my 392. The cam has advertised duration of 292* , 2400 stall convertor, 3.7 gear , turbo 400 trans, compression is 10.35:1. Also I use the 1 inch spacer underthe carbs. I have been running this way since 2004 and it idle well and has good street manners.

George
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby George » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:42 am

moparjack wrote:mart, I understand what you are saying.
I guess what I want may not be obtainable with the 2-4 set up, but yeah, I do love the WOW factor with that set up :) .

I want the WOW factor and driveability, which I reckon is wishful thinking. I know about the 'old fart' thing. I have been wanting a hot rod since I saw picture of my first hot rod was when I was about 10 years old (that was 56 years ago). I had to wait until I was in my mid 50's before I could afford to build one.

Back to my question, what would be a 'much' better carb set up? I have read 390's, or NE57 have posted he is using 400 cfm. I know I am way over carbed. Hard to start when hot, then when it does start runs like pure ole d crap for a spell. I appreciate your opinions, and hey, "us old farts" can't ever be considered as smartasses, just experienced :lol: .

Jack

Carter used to make matched pairs of 400s for use in 2X4 apps. because of the over carb thing. The 390s, in theory, would be the best, but it seems like a lot of diffrent types of engines are over/under carbed & still seem to run well. Have heard that the bodys of the Edel. 500 & 600 are the same, can't remember if it said a 600 could be changed into a 500 or not. "Hard to start & runs like crap for a while" Heat soak & vapor lock perhaps? Engine spinning over nicely, just not wanting to fire up?

hemi4t
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:04 am
Location: Hartland, Michigan

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby hemi4t » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:31 pm

George wrote:
moparjack wrote:mart, I understand what you are saying.
I guess what I want may not be obtainable with the 2-4 set up, but yeah, I do love the WOW factor with that set up :) .

I want the WOW factor and driveability, which I reckon is wishful thinking. I know about the 'old fart' thing. I have been wanting a hot rod since I saw picture of my first hot rod was when I was about 10 years old (that was 56 years ago). I had to wait until I was in my mid 50's before I could afford to build one.

Back to my question, what would be a 'much' better carb set up? I have read 390's, or NE57 have posted he is using 400 cfm. I know I am way over carbed. Hard to start when hot, then when it does start runs like pure ole d crap for a spell. I appreciate your opinions, and hey, "us old farts" can't ever be considered as smartasses, just experienced :lol: .

Jack

Carter used to make matched pairs of 400s for use in 2X4 apps. because of the over carb thing. The 390s, in theory, would be the best, but it seems like a lot of diffrent types of engines are over/under carbed & still seem to run well. Have heard that the bodys of the Edel. 500 & 600 are the same, can't remember if it said a 600 could be changed into a 500 or not. "Hard to start & runs like crap for a while" Heat soak & vapor lock perhaps? Engine spinning over nicely, just not wanting to fire up?



George is right, on the heat soak and possibly vapor lock my edlebrock 750 on my cuda would do that, but on my 392 I used the phonelic 1 inch spacers and run an electric fuel pump never had those issues again with my two 600 edlebrocks.

NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby NE57 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:11 pm

>>I'd seriously consider a set of Webers, now that Empi is selling Chinese repops of the Weber 48IDA. They make very good power, and they're responsive beyond belief.



Well Dan, I am perilously close to pulling the trigger on a weber setup, its burnin a hole in my pocket! You used IDAs and from what I read some folks think IDFs are better suited for street use, having more holes (in the throttle plate?) for better transition, or so I assume. Have you any thoughts on that?

I'm also wondering about sizing. I know mostly 48s are used but for a lower rpm motor(I'm guesstimating 5500) could something like 44s work well? In looking around at websites i found a spec that said there was only 1mm diffrence in the venturi size. Then again the venturis are changeable so who knows what that particular seller was referring to, exactly.

I'm still looking for a forum devoted to webers in general. Everyhting I found so far is about webers in some particular application..VW for example.

dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: What's your street carbueration?

Postby dan miller » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:42 pm

Hello '57

With an IR manifold, and I recommend the ones from Hot Heads, the IDA51.5 mm are a little on the small side. IR's require a large carburetor.

I KNOW that you'd be pleased with the EMPI 51.5's.

I'm building an engine for a friend and he's purchased the EMC 51.5 mm induction system from me. It'll probably be 6 months before we're on the dyno with it, but you'd be welcome to attend.

I'm also in the middle of an 8X2 Holley IR system, with Holley/Keith Dorton 500 cfm 80583's. This should make mondo power on a large engine. It's first "home" will be on my 521 cid Donovan. Should be an exciting deal.

Danny


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