Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by NE57 »

My machinist looked my used cam over and OK'd it for reuse. Its an old Erson flat hydraulic. I measured its duration and lift at apx 232 @ .050 and .450". Which I think is about where I want to be. But I've had no luck in getting a timing card for it.

How would you go about degreeing a cam w/o a card? Just put it in straight up and hope for the best? Advance or retard it X degrees like a shot in the dark? Pick an intake closing point and figure it out from there? What would be that point?

Yeah I know just go buy a new cam but aside from $200 there's something apppealing about making the old cam live again.

Thanks!
DblAdigger
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by DblAdigger »

Easy way to set it "straight up". Install degree wheel and pointer. Set # 6 cyl on TDC...use the positive stop method for accuracy. Install timing set "dot to dot". NOW, select 2 lifters THAT ARE EXACTLY THE SAME HEIGHT, push them down the #6 lifter bores to contact the cam firmly. Using a straight edge (I prefer a 1/2 X 1/2 tool bit) slide it across the top of both lifters. If it sets evenly across both you are dead on split overlap. If the INTAKE lifter is higher, the cam is advanced...EXHAUST higher = retarded. :D
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by NE57 »

Thanks Chuck, It might take me awhile to fully wrap my head around that.

So am I right to think that when #6 is at TDC exhaust stroke then #1 is at TDC compression and that's why the dot to dot works?

Next question....should I just set it straight up or how would I know if an advance/retard is in order?

Now the pistons are 10.5:1 if I use a thin gasket, 10:1 if I use a thick gasket(at least that's what I calculated). So if I go with the 10.5 I might want to retard the cam and advance with 10:1? At least from a detonation standpoint? Its a street motor mostly so how does all that come into play for a motor that drives well, doesn't ping yet gets up and goes? 3100?lbs, AT, stall undecided, gears/tires undecided.

Seems every question leads to even more.
DblAdigger
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by DblAdigger »

No problem with the questions. The reason to use #6 is that is where the dots line up, it's half way thru the firing order so the results are the same as setting up off #1. #6 is at TDC and #1 is at TDC OVERLAP. If... you want/need to change the initial setting and you are using a timing chain setup, you'll need a set of offset keys to do it. From MY experience, a change of 1° either way is hardly noticeable so I wouldn't sweat the small stuff there. Most of the ones I do I use the DONOVAN or MILODON gear drives. They are noisey but virtually unbreakable with high spring pressures. Can't hear them with zoomies anyway. 8)
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by budmspeeco »

Does this technique work on cams ground on different valve timing for intake & exhaust? Most cams ground to "back in the day" specs have mirrored numbers, the intake & exhaust have identical center lines & lifts. Later, companies started moving them around to get better performance.The center lines and durations are moved up & down the scale, depending on your application. I read where Comp Cams has literally 1000s of grinds in their arsenal. Good idea though. I have heard of it vaguely before. Glad to see it in print so it is understandable. Buddy
'48 anglia
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by NE57 »

I'm using a single idler gearset by CAT. Since there are no dots to line up, I had a tough time figuring it out. So I reinstalled the old chain set and followed Chuck's procedure using the #6 as outlined above. Then I measured the cam as best I could, made notes and then took the chain set off and reinstalled the Cat gearset, being very careful not to move the cam. The CAT crank gear has five key slots and the one that lined up was not the one that had the logo next to it,which i'm told is the 0 offset keyway, acording to what I have read from guys using the CAT set, I'm at 6 degrees offset, I couldn't right now tell you whether thats advanced or retarded. Then I measured the cam the same way to double check that I was indeed properly lined up and yes it was. The complete set of numbers were within one degree of the first check.

But my numbers don't seem quite right,here's what i got...


exh opens 97btdc
exh opens @ .050" 47btdc
exh centerline 110 approximate
exh closes @ .050" 7atdc
exh closes 70atdc

int open 59btdc
int opens @.050" 5btdc
int centerline 112 approximate
int closes @.050" 49abdc
int close 117abdc

If I calculated correctly I have total duration of 347ex/346int and duration @ .050" at 234 int/exh. Lobe lift is .300"

Its the total duration that doesn't seem right to me. Most cams I've looked at that are in the vicinity of 230 @ .050 have total duration figures in the area of 300 degrees. The cam is an old Erson hydraulic that I have no cam card for.
If I calculated total duration wrong then where is my mistake? Or am I just wrong about the 300 degree thing? Could this cam have longer than usual clearance ramps? Help me figure this out, please. Should I just leave it as is, figuring that its straight up and that's all that matters?

Sorry, but I'm going with the CAT,I did a lot of research and found not one durability complaint by guys who actually used the set, which I find more credible than theoretical dissing by guys who haven't ever used it. Like they say, ask the man who owns one.

Thanks
DblAdigger
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by DblAdigger »

With the timing set of your choice installed, rotate the crank till #1 cyl. is at TDC. Measure the height of each lifter on cyl. #6. If the intake lifter is higher...the cam is advanced. :o
Chuck.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by NE57 »

The #6 trick was easy once I did it a couple of times to get the feel of it. As of now the cam is one degree retarded. I must have screwed up reading the degree wheel for the total duration numbers. I did it again last night and got something like 312 degrees total duration but the same numbers for @.050". I must have read the wrong set of numbers on the wheel the first time.
I added an oiler for the bearing and teeth....couldn't hurt right?
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budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by budmspeeco »

Post the grind that is stamped on the end of the cam. I have a lot of old cam catalogs. i may be able to find the one you have. Or send a message to me. Buddy
'48 anglia
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by NE57 »

190H Sig Erson

many thanks
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by budmspeeco »

The catalogs only go back to 1974. From what it looks like, in the 1999 catalog Erson was under the Mr. Gasket umbrella but I don't know what the parent company is now.The '74 catalog has listings for early 331/354/392 motors. I can't find that grind listed anywhere in the early hemi section. I can't even find it anywhere in the catalog or price sheet. Normally , cam grinders used the same grind number on several different engine families even though the specs were not always the same. If it is not in the catalog on any engine or in the price sheet, it must have been a very old grind. You may even consider sending it to update the grind as some early stuff was not the best as far as actual performance value went. A Z30 Isky cam I had in my car in the early 60s has totally different specs now. I can't think of the name of the guy grinding stuff for early hemis but he even has cam blanks for Desotos and Dodges. I found it. He is Donny Johanson. I have it under Contreras Cams in my phone. Phone # 909-597-5950 in Chino California. Give him a call. He may be able to help. You other camless hemi guys may want to write that number down if you didn't have it. For another possibility, Erson was at 20925 Brant Ave. in Long Beach. 213-537-1791 or 213-774-6020. California has gone through several area code phone upgrades over the years so this may not be useful. They may still be at the same location though. Buddy I just read this caption under a photo in the back page. " After the camshaft is finish ground, it must be stamped. In addition to the name and grind number are the operator number, machine number, master number and lobe centers, plus any special information if not a production item." That is a lot of numbers on a cam face!!!!
'48 anglia
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Degreeing w/o a cam card?

Post by budmspeeco »

Send an email address or a fax number & I will photo & email or fax all of the pages for the early hemi cams. I read you calculations. It looks like you have a top fuel grind on a hydraulic stick. It also has about 1/2 of the lobes worn off!! LOL Buddy
'48 anglia
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