Heads..which would you do?

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Heads..which would you do?

Post by NE57 »

...Was Pushrod Checking.

Since this has evolved beyond mere pushrod checking I thought I'd start a new thread. I talked to Bob Walker and my machine shop and it seems the finished heads I bought were probably meant for aluminum rockers, because of the stem length.

So the choices on what to do are
1) Pop $2500 for titans and 'hope' that takes care of it
2) Manley custom valves to fit exact requirements to replace the problem long stem valves(neither Bob nor the machinist thought stem cutting was a good idea since they are already hardened)
3) Start fresh with the extra heads I have.

$2500 is not an option for me

The custom valves would cost in the same ballpark, give or take, as starting fresh.

Custom let's me keep the present big (maybe too big?) valve head sizes and the larger D shaped exh port
mockup motor 011.jpg

but for the street is it really an advantage? Also the large valve heads have had the crossovers filled, not so good for the street.

If I start fresh then I'm in control, within the limits of parts availability and budget.

Just for the heck of it I slapped the motor together because I needed to see the brute to keep from getting discouraged.
mockup motor 006.jpg
Yeah I know a water pump won't fit, it will be a remote electric (hopefully that works out)

So what do you think???
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NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by NE57 »

try those pics again
mockup motor 006.jpg
mockup motor 011.jpg
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DblAdigger
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by DblAdigger »

IMHO, for street use, I'd go with your other set of castings. SI industries sells a good 1 piece replacement valve, both intake and exhaust, at reasonable prices. (they have them with 11/32 stems as well...if you want to changeover) I've used their better grade valves in blown fuel cackle car motors several times with good results. You might find a cackle car builder that would be interested in your big valve heads. (not me, I've got 2 pallet loads of castings)
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by NE57 »

I dropped off the spare heads this morning at the machine shop,
In a way it kills me to wind up with stock heads at this point.

So for now its stock heads, just to move things along.
mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by mart »

NE57 wrote:
I dropped off the spare heads this
morning at the machine shop,In a way it kills me
to wind up with stock heads at this point.
So for now its stock heads, just to move things
along.
-----------------------------
Good move, I guess. At least the rebuilt stock
heads will get you going again and as you said,
"move things along". But I wouldn't necessarily
give up on your ported, big valve heads either.
It would seem that all they really need to fix the
geometry issues and make them usable is a
custom set of valves with oversized heads, but
with a stock stem length. Unless you absolutely
have to get rid of them, why not set them asside
for awhile, get the engine running with the stock
heads and then, later, when finances allow, invest
in another set of valves for the "good" heads. Even
if the heads are a bit off overkill, the porting and
bigger valves have got to be worth a significant
increase in horsepower by both raising and
also extending the usable rpm range. As far as
the blocked heat risers go, I wouldnt worry about
that at all At least, not unless you're planning to
use the car as a true 'daily driver' in actual. cold,
'winter weather' conditons - which is not too likely!
Under normal 'summer' conditions -ie - anything
over about 60 degrees F temperatures, other than
the engine maybe needing a few minutes to warm
up before'getting on it' - which is good practice
anyway - the blocked heat risers are an asset and
will improve power ouput, probably adding about
5 to 10 horsepower by providing a cooler, more
dense intake charge and allowing for more
ignition advance on a given fuel octane.

mart
==========================================
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by NE57 »

I seriously thought about just fitting the heads with custom valves. Cost about $500+/- plus perhaps remachining the seats? What kept me from doing that was there still remains the possibility that these heads once done over, could still prove to be unsuitable for a street machine. If they were useable as is its not as big a deal if they're not optimum, cuz they were paid for.

I spoke with Willys Replacement and they can custom make alum stands that both raise the shafts and spread them apart to solve the geometry problem, would require machining out the pushrod holes. Also $500 plus. Still have the streetability question though.

At least with stock valves I KNOW they will work well for the application. It would just bum me out even more if I spent more money and it was not up to the specific job which is good power AND acceptable driveability(open to interpretation). I think these heads need to be under a supercharger so I'll probably sell them and maybe I can buy a trans with the proceeds. Get the car together. This year is not looking so promising anymore.

So longer term I might pick up more spare heads. Experiment on the flow bench to see if larger valves with stock length stems and stock rockers would actually show a practical, economic gain, the restriction being valve lift. If successful I'd have the stock heads on a running motor to actually compare to.

Geez, no wonder my GF says I'm hemi obsessed.

Time to start thinking about the next question and the one after that. Nope, I'm not going away yet!
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by budmspeeco »

I started reading your questions beginning with this post to those from about a year and a half ago. Is there ANYTHING you know about engine assembly? I never have encountered such drivel in my life. Pay someone to put the thing together & use it. You are way over thinking this !!! It's just a motor. Buddy
'48 anglia
mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by mart »

budmspeeco wrote:

......You are way over thinking
this !!! It's just a motor. Buddy
---------------------
Re 'overthinking things' and searching for mechanical
perfection. I know this may not be at all relevant to
building a high-performance, unblown 392 street engine
in 2010, but I remember reading a 'Popular Hot Rodding'
magazine article 'back in the day' - circa 1966 or '67
or so, on the "Surfers" (aka 'Skinner, Jobe & Sorokin')
AA/Fuel dragster team out of Long Beach CA.

At the time, the "Surfers" were one of the fastest
& quickest West Coast AA/Fuel dragster teams and
were noted for running basicly bone-stock and
literally, junkyard-sourced engines. While other
teams were persuing the latest 'trick of the week'
engine building tricks and combos and resorting to
high-tech and high-dollar precision-built race engines,
the "Surfers" used bone stock, well-worn, shortblocks
scrounged from wrecks in local L.A. area boneyards
and popped them, virtually 'as is', into their
record-setting fueler.

Their claimed "ideal" engine was a '57 or '58 392,
pulled from a junked Imperial or New Yorker.
They preferred stock engines from the 'luxo-barge'
Imperials and New Yorkers. because other than
usually having high mileage on them, they most
likely hadn't been severely abused, broken or
previously modified. And they looked for shortblocks
with at least 100,000 miles on them(!), as they were
cheap, already 'nicely worn in' and with the high
mileage, nice and loose and already "self-clearenced"!
About all they would do when they got an engine from
the junkyard was is slap in a set of .010 or .020 over',
low-compression M/T blower pistons, with the bores
merely 'ridged-reamed' and then honed (not even bored)
with a hand-held, electric-drill-powered hone to make
the pistons fit! They'd 'ring & bearing' it , add their
race cam, their 'good heads, blower, fuel and ignition
system, pop it into their dragster and go racing! No
precision machine work, trick heavy-duty bottom end
parts or even oiling system mods, other than shimming
the relief spring in the stock oil pump! Their one "trick"
(and one of their claims to fame) though, to beat other
teams who were running high-dollar, actual 'precision
built', race engines was their fuel mix, or rather the lack
of an actual "mix". While other teams back then were
mostly running between 50% and (sometimes, very
occasionally, *up to*) 75% nitro blended with methanol,
the "Surfers" ran straight nitro - a full 100% load - right
from the can. That was something that was virtually
unheard of at the time and considered to be a
guaranteed recipe for mechanical suicide and the height
of insanity by most of their competitors! But it worked
and sometimes the stock, junkyard-sourced shortblocks
lived for quite a while - even running on 100% nitro.
Sometimes they didn't live too long either....but moslly
they did....and the "Surfers" win record definitely speaks
for itself. And no 'over thinking' the combination, or
worrying a lot about acheiving 'absolute mechanical
perfection' for those guys. Nope.....just 'tip the can'
(and throw the label in too, if necessary!!!), hope for
the best and go!!! Man, 'them's was the days'!!! :) :) :)

mart
===========================================
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by budmspeeco »

I guess you agree!! Not much "overthinking" with the Surfers. You have to remember back then 392s were in every wrecking yard on the west coast. My only comment is when I was growing up in the 50s & early 60s, I don't recall EVER seeing a car with 100,000 miles on it. Oil back then did not let the engines last over 75,000 miles at the most. Every car had a 3:55 or lower gear . My Dad's '55 Cameo came with a 4:11 and overdrive. My Mom's "63 SS Impala with a 250 horse 327 and power glide a 3:55 and little short tires. MY '57 had 3:70s stock with a 265. Those motors turned some RPMs. And A1 hemi blocks with their alleged high nickle may not have fared much better. Yeah I know, your granny had 247,000 on her Falcon. I never pulled a motor apart that had a lifter valley which wasn't to the bottom of the intake with sludge. Look at the few original early hemi survivors, being torn down for the first time. It takes a scraper to get the grunge out of the lifter valley. As for the Surfer's story: I am sure you have heard the term "Blowin" smoke!". It was an article in a magazine. Tell me Greer, Black, Prudhomme (?) , with their record and Black's mechanical genius, built their motors in a similar fashion. I was there to see it. Got a picture of me in front of the Lion's sign. Went to a lot of races at Orange County, Pomona, Lions . A fuel & funny car meet at OC with at least 400 cars. JUST FUEL & FUNNY CARS!! Nothing else. Made a lot old 8 MM movies I am afraid I lost in a divorce!!!! Send me the heads. I'll fix 'em for the price of parts. Ask Scott. He has been here. Maybe NE57 just likes writing to the Hemi !! Buddy
'48 anglia
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by NE57 »

It should be pretty obvious i don't have a lot of experience building motors. I've done two. A 354 when i was young and stupid and a 350sbc later on in life. The 354 didn't last long, the 350 did. The difference was on the 2nd motor I researched and learned everything I needed to know and didn't just slap it together. Maybe I overthought that one too but it ran for 40K miles before I sold it and I've seen it around town for several years after that.

As for being drivel...well, if my questions and comments result in a well built motor, then maybe its the readers' impatience that considers it drivel, I don't, my motor won't. You know...everybody starts out knowing nothing, I dare say even you guys knew nothing, once upon a time. So cut me a little slack if I'm not as good as you. I'd rather think I have knowledgable web friends looking over my shoulder to make sure its done right.

I belong to another webboard where I am one of the experts, just so happens its about my work which I've done for 32 years. The other greybeards and I don't ridicule newbies cuz they're uinexperienced. We try to help them. Its important to us because in our field there's no such thing as an apprenticeship anymore. We die, the old ways die, unless we do something about it. Its kinda the same with old Hemis, don't you think?
DblAdigger
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by DblAdigger »

Mart, speaking of "back in the day", and $25.00 grease 392's, remember Cruz and Tony's old man..."flaming Frank" Pedragon? Bone stock junk yard 354&392's, never even drained the oil or changed a spark plug, pull the manifold and bolt on the blower, off with the exhaust manifolds and on with the weed sweepers...75 to 98 % every pass. They'd get 0 to 3 passes out of one, BIG explosions, just plunk in another. Quite a show.
Chuck Stevens
Some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands.
mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by mart »

DblAdigger wrote:Mart, speaking of "back in the day", and $25.00 grease 392's, remember Cruz and Tony's old man..."flaming Frank" Pedragon? Bone stock junk yard 354&392's, never even drained the oil or changed a spark plug, pull the manifold and bolt on the blower, off with the exhaust manifolds and on with the weed sweepers...75 to 98 % every pass. They'd get 0 to 3 passes out of one, BIG explosions, just plunk in another. Quite a show.
---------------------------------
I hadn't heard that about Frank Pedragon before. Musta' pissed
off the poor guys who had to run in that lane next, right after
one "Flamin' Frank's" boneyard specials decided it had enough
and it was time to go to 'Hemi Heaven'!! <LOL>

mart
==============================================================
DRHEMI
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:30 am

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by DRHEMI »

Before history remembers the "Surfer" as some poor hicks who were successful inspite of their lack of knowledge, let me make one note.

The Surfers were blessed with a real thinker in the fuel department. I can't remember his name, but he was the individual credited with coming up with "down nozzles", where fuel was introduced BELOW the blower. A great deal of their success was related to their superb (for the time) fuel management. Plus I believe that they ran more compression than their contemporaries. Their success was well deserved, not some dumb luck, cheap bastards!
-Andy Carlson
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by budmspeeco »

Still waiting for NE57 to decide if he wants his heads reworked for FREE. Cost of shipping & parts. I buy the parts, at cost, or you send them with the heads. Buddy
'48 anglia
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Heads..which would you do?

Post by NE57 »

Buddy, I appreciate the offer, that's very generous and helpful. The stock heads are already in the shop, I'll either sell the big valve heads or else hold onto them, dunno yet. If I find $2500 in the laundry I'll pop for titans.

Thanks again,
Neil
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