Day Dreaming About Induction....

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

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DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by DavidBraley »

In the evenings, I've started to daydream about what kind of induction system I'll use for the 392 build. Dreaming costs nothing. :D

A good friend of mine recently gave me a 29 Model A Coupe body for my project. I still have to pinch myself it's real. The body will need a lot of work to be usable, but I don't care. I love to fix stuff. So my goal with this project will be an early 60's traditional style Model A rod, with of course, a 392 up front. :wink:

I am in no way an expert on this era, but I think I know what was popular at the time from some searching and reading. I would love to use a blower, but I need this car to be a daily driver in the summer. 392's and blowers are forever married together thanks to the late 50's and early 60's drag racers. But I've decided to keep this engine naturally aspirated for practical reasons.

This is what I've seen:

1. The 1x4 aluminum manifold with about a 700cfm to 750cfm holley.
2. The 2x4 aluminum manifold with the smallest 4 barrels you can find. I think Bob Walker says if you can get the Holley 390cfm carbs they work the best.
3. The 4x2 aluminum manifold with 4 Stromberg 97's, all in a row from back to front down the middle.
4. The 6x2 aluminum log manifolds with 6 Stromberg 97's, three in a row on each side.
5. The 8x2 aluminum log manifolds with 8 Stromberg 97's, four in a row on each side.
6. The Hilborn fuel injection stacks.

The most practical and easiest route would be the single 4 barrel on a nice HotHeads dual plan manifold. Easiest to tune, very streetable, and would make great power. Probably the way I'll go after I come to my senses. :lol:

Two fours would have that extra cool factor for an open engine car. A little more maintenance, but still easy to make work, I think.

4x2, 6x2, 8x2 setup? These setups look very cool, but there is a little voice in my head that is telling me to stay away from this. He says it's much harder to do than it looks. Don't worry, I don't have imaginary people talk to me very much.

The Hilborn. I know this route would be really tough to make work with a mechanical pump. On the street that is. Some claim it's possible. But, having those eight stacks on top like that would be very, very cool looking. Then there is the little matter of the cost. If you can find one, I'm guessing they are more than a couple grand for the whole setup with pump and all. Compound that with the fact that I'm a thrifty sort of guy..... :roll:

Hilborn, Hilborn.... I'm still thinking.... I've got this home aluminum casting setup I've been building... and I might try to cast a custom aluminum manifold inspired by the Hilborn injection system (that was a nice way of saying I would basically copy what it looks like :oops: ). I'm imagining fuel injectors placed between and underneath out of sight to effectively make a modern direct port fuel injection induction system. The Hilborn copy would be nothing more than a set of independent throttle bodies. Carefully hide a crank trigger system that distributes spark through a gutted stock distributor, with all fuel and spark handled by a hidden MegaSquirt engine management control system.

It would be a great way to bring an old dinosaur up to the 21st century. If done carefully, the engine could still look period correct. If properly tuned, you should be able to get great performance and a bump in efficiency compared to running a carburetor. The controller would need to be tuned to what I think is called "Alpha-N" due to the lack of a MAP sensor, but that's doable with a little extra work.

I know, it sounds like I've already made my choice. I'm just day dreaming. That Hilborn style injection system would look really cool though. 8)
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law
392heminut
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:16 pm

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by 392heminut »

David, when I first put my 392 together I ran the Weiand dual 4 intake with 2 Edelbrock 600 CFM carbs with progressive linkage. The setup worked great on the street with those 600's and the progressive linkage. I actually drilled the counterweights on the secondary air valves to get them to open sooner! It was a great looking setup too!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda
hemifan
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:29 pm
Location: Knoxville TN

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by hemifan »

Don't forget about the 3 x 2 alternative. Weiand ( any others?) made such manifolds. I've seen them with patterns for the 3- or 4-bolt style carbs. More streetable than the Weiand 4 x 2 which lacks good fuel distribution and can be run with progressive linkage.
DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by DavidBraley »

392heminut wrote:David, when I first put my 392 together I ran the Weiand dual 4 intake with 2 Edelbrock 600 CFM carbs with progressive linkage. The setup worked great on the street with those 600's and the progressive linkage. I actually drilled the counterweights on the secondary air valves to get them to open sooner! It was a great looking setup too!
What I like about the dual four is the fact that Chrysler even did it as standard equipment on the 300's. Edelbrock 600's eh? Those are super easy to find compared to the little Holley 390's. A dual four setup would be very reasonable to do if you take your time and find your parts on sale. Much cooler looking than a single four. 8)
hemifan wrote:Don't forget about the 3 x 2 alternative. Weiand ( any others?) made such manifolds. I've seen them with patterns for the 3- or 4-bolt style carbs. More streetable than the Weiand 4 x 2 which lacks good fuel distribution and can be run with progressive linkage.
I didn't realize they made a tri-power setup for the early Hemi back then, at least I haven't seen one yet. I know HotHeads has a three two barrel manifold that they sell today. My first car was a 66 Goat with a 389 tri-power and I loved it. With a setup like that, you could run Holley's I bet instead of the Rochester carbs. Use 300cfm carbs for all three maybe. Two barrel carbs are also easy to find.

This project of mine is sort of taking shape by fate. I'm sure my induction choice will be too. Originally, I had it in my head I would build a 30-31 Model A closed cab pickup. But then, the 29 Coupe body landed in my lap.... :wink:

I've been told to go with the flow, and enjoy the process. I think that's good advice. It seems in the past, every time I try to force something to happen, it always blows up in my face. :roll:

Isn't day dreaming fun? :D
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law
NE57
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by NE57 »

On a model A I think multi carbs would look great, 2x4 or 3x2 probably being more attainable $ wise. But a single 4bbl would give you the chance to fab an air cleaner without going nuts... do something very different looking perhaps.

If you're planning on a finned valley cover some manifolds show it off better. The weiand 2x4 covers it alot. From the pics it seems like the hotheads tunnel ram will show it off nice. A minor point maybe but looks count too.

Nice that you have a homebrew casting setup. I've ben thinking about doing something like that. I've never cast alum but I have cast gold and silver which have a much higher melting point but also much smaller mass. So there are some similarities but also diffrences I'm sure, like the total BTUs required for X amount of metal being the first big hurdle, torch choice.

Dreaming's fun.Waking up not so much.
DHEMI
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:01 am

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by DHEMI »

Image

Have a 4bbl. on mine.
lucky13
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Antioch, CA

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by lucky13 »

A few years ago, Rod and custom magazine did an article on hiding a fuel injection setup in a false valley tray. I will lookup the article when I get a free chance ( i still have the magazine). They made up 1" think spacers to mount under the injection, where they welded on injector bungs. I liked everything they did, except they put a throttle position sensor on the rear of a throttle shaft. That was kind of a deal breaker to me. I didn't want to have anything "showing". I'll reply with the month and year of the Magazine later
Boost is like crack. The first hits free, after that it drains your wallet and bank account
DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by DavidBraley »

lucky13 wrote:A few years ago, Rod and custom magazine did an article on hiding a fuel injection setup in a false valley tray. I will lookup the article when I get a free chance ( i still have the magazine). They made up 1" think spacers to mount under the injection, where they welded on injector bungs. I liked everything they did, except they put a throttle position sensor on the rear of a throttle shaft. That was kind of a deal breaker to me. I didn't want to have anything "showing". I'll reply with the month and year of the Magazine later
Thanks! I would love to see that. :wink:
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law
lucky13
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Antioch, CA

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by lucky13 »

Ok the magazine was Rod and Custom, August 2007. Its more of a picture article, but it still covers alot of the good technical information on it. I will try and get my scanner going. If anyone wants a copy of the article, send me an email. my email address is satelite67@comcast.net . Might take a few days though
Boost is like crack. The first hits free, after that it drains your wallet and bank account
DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by DavidBraley »

Thanks Lucky13! I just sent you an email.

Take care,

David
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law
dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by dan miller »

Hilborn now sells an EFI stack injector setup. I have a set of MFI Hilborn stacks that I'm converting to EFI for fun and giggles (and to be ready if EMC ever allows more than four butterflies).

The conversion is quite simple, just a matter of drilling out the .125" NPT MFI injector bosses for EFI injectors. Hilborn sells a fuel rail with early hemi bore spacing, so with an old set of throttle bodies, some EFI injectors, and a fuel rail, all's well.

There are a number of EFI boxes that work well - my favorite is eMS-PRO. Basically a commercialized Mega Squirt. The Mega Squirt community is HUGE, and there are many there that will help out.

We're screwing together an EFI injector (as above) and firing it with the eMS-Pro lighting off a set of Bosch coil on plug ignitors off of a VW.

Film @ 11.

Danny
DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by DavidBraley »

That sounds Awesome! Share when you get a chance, if you can. I understand if things need to be secret for a bit. I'll have to look at the eMS-PRO system.

I'm registered at several of the MegaSquirt forums, and I've been reading, and reading, and reading..... :wink: You are right, the community is great over there, and so active you can hardly keep up. :o

Lots to learn. 8)

David
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law
dan miller
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by dan miller »

Hello David

I don't do secret very well. lol We're ready to go on the dyno with our 388 cid EMC entry, and probably won't be able to get the stack deal together in time. It should be ready for dyno session #2, and I'll post all the numbers.

I'm building an engine for a street rod (335 cid, 255 flat tappet, 10.5:1, warmed over big valve ''55 heads, Vertex, etc.), and the gentleman really wants Hilborn Stack injectors with EFI. So the system might be in a car before it goes on the dyno.

Danny
budmspeeco
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm
Location: South Houston, Texas

Re: Day Dreaming About Induction....

Post by budmspeeco »

I have a set of Hilborns you can borrow if you will pay the freight both ways and insure them. I did kinda dropped the ball on the plate help but I knew you could figure out the answers by yourself. I will send pics of what I have if you are interested. PM me for an email address. Buddy
'48 anglia
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