Hay Yall.....

Discussion of the 331-354-392 HEMIs.

Moderators: TrWaters, 392heminut, scottm

DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by DavidBraley » Thu May 12, 2011 8:06 pm

Rob,

Here is a water crossover for a wet manifold I thought was tastefully done. Below the image is also a link to the build thread:

Image

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/show ... p?t=104314
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Thu May 12, 2011 9:26 pm

Wow. Thanks yall. Yall are really pourin on the info. Much appreciated. Now.......the only other hurdle I need to get over is how to raise the compression without spending a boatload. Because at 7.5:1, it's not what I would call stellar. I've read about the custom Ross slugs, but is there a less costly route or should I simply plan to save my money and bite em off?

David, thanks for that water crossover picture. That's the kinda old school stuff I like.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Fri May 13, 2011 1:34 pm

Well the little motor has a pretty fresh rebuild on it despite its outward appearance. It is .030 over with fresh cross hatch in the cylinders. The valve guides have no noticeable movement and the lifters actually still have a convex surface. I honestly believe I could have fixed the ignition and gone through the carb and made it bust gas. He said it was runnin good when they pulled it about a year ago and i firmly believe him. I have to get the short block disassembled but it's real hot now and I can only stand this a little at a time. Stay tuned.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Fri May 13, 2011 3:21 pm

Good GRIEF! What a hermorphordite sumbee this thing is! The bellhousin wraps AROUND the flywheel, so the only way to remove the bellhousin is to remove the flywheel first. Ya with me? Well, get a load of this. It had STUDS going through the flywheel with nuts ON THE FRONT BETWEEN THE FLYWHEEL AND THE ENGINE. Yeah. Read that again. lol So, one at a time, one FLAT at the time, I loosened each nut with an open end wrench and got the flywheel and bellhousin off. Can we cuss here? lol So yes, that means the crank flange has threadless holes on it. What size are standard flywheel bolts? I hope These holes in the crank are small enough to tap to that size. They are pretty big. Might need an automotive crank? Wait....don't tell me. Lemmie guess. The cars are the same way.

DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by DavidBraley » Fri May 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Rob,

All early Hemi cranks came with non-threaded holes at the rear flang. One thing a lot of people will do is tap those holes for 1/2-20 flywheel bolts. The holes in the end of the crank flange are already the correct size to tap 1/2-20. These motors have some quirks that you won't see on other engines.

You should get the Tex Smith's book "The Complete Chrysler Hemi." The author is Ron Ceridono. The book has a ton of great info on how to work with this old iron. A must for Hemi enthusiasts library. :wink:

Take care,

David
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Fri May 13, 2011 5:47 pm

Thanks David, I will.

DavidBraley
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:40 pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by DavidBraley » Fri May 13, 2011 6:21 pm

I could be wrong, but I think TRWaters was dusting off the tops on some of the two barrel intakes with a milling machine, and then boring four holes. He adds a custom made aluminum adapter to effectively convert the intake from a 2bbl to a 4bbl.

I'll see if I can find those pictures.... Found them! The last pick is a converted 2bbl truck intake that might be like yours:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3281&p=11673#p11673

My thinking is that if the motor is close to being a runner, a conversion like this might get you on the road quicker. Not sure what you have in the way of machine tools, or the desire to do something like this.

Just thinking out loud....

David
Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines the size of the hole you make. Holzwarth's Law

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Fri May 13, 2011 6:25 pm

That's pretty cool.

George
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by George » Sat May 14, 2011 6:55 am

As far as pistons & C/R is concerned, the 7.5 is nominal. A few that I've read where actual measurements of C/R was done have come in up to a full point low. Custom pistons about doubles the pistion bill, but a measured 9-10:1 is a lot better than stock replacement that might be only 6.5.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Sat May 14, 2011 10:57 am

George wrote:As far as pistons & C/R is concerned, the 7.5 is nominal. A few that I've read where actual measurements of C/R was done have come in up to a full point low. Custom pistons about doubles the pistion bill, but a measured 9-10:1 is a lot better than stock replacement that might be only 6.5.
Yes, I kinda figured that was the case as I have blueprinted a LOT of engines throught he years and they usually come up low. Done lots of Chrysler big and small blocks and they always come up dismal. It has new .030 over pistons....so my thought is to try and reuse them. I will blueprint what I have and see where the compression actually is. If it's 7:1 or greater, I'm going to knock .100" off the heads, have the intake side surfaced to match and call it a day. No doubt the head is thick enough on the deck side to do it. I wouldn't be surprised to see it would stand .200" but a .100" cut would be fine with me. I still want to run regular gas. I literally rerung a junkyard 360 years ago that blueprinted less than 8.5 threw in a mild Crane cam with an IRON Thermoquad intake and a good TQ and chunked on a cheap set of headers and went 13.99 down the track the first time out spinnin. Probably had a honest 270 HP. The thing I like about the Hemi is, they are so efficient you really don't need a ton of compression. I would like to see it hit the 8.5 mark, though. More would be nice. If I don't watch it, I will be sellin my slant 6 hot rod stuff to fund this 331 going into my 63 dart 2 door post car. heh

mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by mart » Sat May 14, 2011 1:00 pm

George wrote: "As far as pistons & C/R is concerned, the 7.5 is nominal. A few that I've read where actual measurements of C/R was done have come in up to a full point low. Custom pistons about doubles the pistion bill, but a measured 9-10:1 is a lot better than stock replacement that might be only 6.5."
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You might want to check into Egge. They can supply cast 10 or 10.5 to 1 early hemi pistons for about half the cost of the good Ross custom forgings. Forged are better of course, but for a fairly mild 'street' build cast pistons are fine.
mart
==============

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Sat May 14, 2011 1:10 pm

mart wrote:
George wrote: "As far as pistons & C/R is concerned, the 7.5 is nominal. A few that I've read where actual measurements of C/R was done have come in up to a full point low. Custom pistons about doubles the pistion bill, but a measured 9-10:1 is a lot better than stock replacement that might be only 6.5."
--------------------
You might want to check into Egge. They can supply cast 10 or 10.5 to 1 early hemi pistons for about half the cost of the good Ross custom forgings. Forged are better of course, but for a fairly mild 'street' build cast pistons are fine.
mart
==============
Really? For a 331? I haven't seen any yet. I thought I had looked through their catalog pretty good. I would much prefer affordable replacement pistons to milling.

mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by mart » Sat May 14, 2011 4:05 pm

[/quote]
"Really? For a 331? I haven't seen any yet. I thought I had looked through their catalog pretty good. I would much prefer affordable replacement pistons to milling."[/quote]
-----------------------------
I admit to not having checked the Egge catalog for 331 pistons, but if they aren't specifically listed, try giving them a call. Also, Eric at Hot Heads might have some recommendations too. Maybe more than you want to get into on this build but if you can find a source for some new (or maybe even used, but still decent) standard-bore 354 pistons, you could bore the block .125 over and use those. If you go that route it would be good to have the cylinder walls sonic tested first to verify their thickness. But assuming the bores aren't excessively pitted or corroded on the water-jacket side *and there was no major core shift when the block was cast*, most 331's will safely take a .125 inch overbore. Also, a lot of the later 331 truck engines specifically, used the same block casting as the 354 and were simply machined .125 undersize for 331 heavy-duty truck applications. If you you've got one of those castings, standard or even .030 or .040 over, 354 pistons would work. And possibly too, (with sonic checking definitely required to verify the remaining wall thickness) even 4-inch bore (354 +.0625) 392 pistons could work. That would also give you 365 cubic inches too! :)

mart
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Last edited by mart on Sat May 14, 2011 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Sat May 14, 2011 4:17 pm

It certainly seems I might have a lot of options. I would rather find some pistons that would bring compression up with what I have now. I noticed PAW has a listing for both 7.5 and 8.5 for the 331. I might give them a call too. I will call EGGE Monday and see what the scoop is. Thanks.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Sat May 14, 2011 6:11 pm

I know this is gonna sound stupid..but where is the oil dipstick supposed to be located on this engine? As of yet, I have not found where it goes. Also, what will I do about an oil fill loaction? The oil fill location now is located in the timing cover. I am probably going to go the Chevy water pump route which will eliminate that. So what do I do?

DHEMI
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:01 am

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by DHEMI » Sat May 14, 2011 9:12 pm

Man,.100" cut on the heads is an auful lot.You're going to need special push rods.Dip stick hole is located on the driver side
inline with the dist.post hole at the rear of the block.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Sat May 14, 2011 9:18 pm

DHEMI wrote:Man,.100" cut on the heads is an auful lot.You're going to need special push rods.Dip stick hole is located on the driver side
inline with the dist.post hole at the rear of the block.
Well it is a very common mod for the slant crowd to go .100"-.150" on the slant heads...and they still have plenty of material left. ....but I am leaving that as a last resort. I would much rather find a higher compression piston. Thanks for the dipstick location. I will go find it.

DHEMI
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:01 am

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by DHEMI » Sat May 14, 2011 9:35 pm

Image

Here's how I put oil in mine.Used threaded bung and cap. H.H. has'em.Put in a 90 degree hose barb for fresh filtered air and
pcv replaced the road draft tube.

George
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by George » Sun May 15, 2011 7:58 am

Unless things have changed, the only cast pistons were 8.5s unless you found an old set of Jahn's.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Sun May 15, 2011 12:28 pm

George wrote:Unless things have changed, the only cast pistons were 8.5s unless you found an old set of Jahn's.
That's what I thought....those are all I can find as well. However, check this out. I found it doing a general search for Hemi builds. http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/081 ... to_33.html the article says the pistons are from Egge, but gives no part number. Clearly, that piston is more than 8.5:1. At least...from looking at it I would think it is. I wouldn't think a magazine would do a buildup with an 8.5 motor. Maybe they are custom? I know this. The piston in that picture is way more compression than mine. Mine are flat tops with two valve reliefs and don't quite come up to the edge of the deck. I would have to assume that Egge piston is at least two points more than mine.....but you know what they say about assumptions. lol

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Thu May 19, 2011 11:34 am

Alright, head number one cleaned, bead blasted magnafluxed and primed. I use Krylon ultra high temp barbeque paint for primer. It works real good.

Image
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Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Fri May 20, 2011 7:11 pm

I got the second head cleaned, blasted, magged and primed today. I'm stoked. I spoke with my machine shop today and was told that the block and heads will stand a .070" cut with no problem. This would put compression right around 9.5:1 without the cost of new pistons. This may be the direction I will go. I had planned on using adjustable pushrods anyway, so the material removed won't make a difference there. I will just need to mill the intake manifold sides of the heads accordingly.

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Fri May 20, 2011 8:50 pm

I posted this in the wanted section: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4217

I really want to leave heavy milling as an absolute last resort. I have lots of time with this so I can wait. If any of you have some pistons I might can use, please respond to the ad I posted above. Thank you.

Rob

mart
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by mart » Mon May 23, 2011 1:16 pm

Hi Rob,
I posted this over on the H.A.M.B. for you.
Maybe something useful will turn up.
Mart
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http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/show ... ostcount=1
====================================

Rob
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Hay Yall.....

Post by Rob » Mon May 23, 2011 1:47 pm

Wow. Thanks mart. I really appreciate that. I'm not a member there......nothin against it. I just try to limit my internet forum memberships. Too much to keep track of. Besides, if I ain't careful, I could stay on this thing all day. lol

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