Desoto S26 341 update + rocker reconditioning

Discussion of the Early Dodge / DeSoto HEMIs.

Moderators: TrWaters, 392heminut, scottm

Post Reply
originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

Desoto S26 341 update + rocker reconditioning

Post by originalwirehead » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:51 pm

Hi guys. Its been awhile since my last post, so I thought I better update. Learning the Desoto hemi line is a challenge to say the least. I do have a couple questions after I tell you how my destoto 341 is coming along. My cost to purchase the locked up 341 4bbl block- $250! :o

The engine is in my possession now. First time I literally had to "pull" an engine. The tranny guidepins were corroded in the alum spacer. Had to jerk them apart with the pickup truck, while the tranny was still attached to the car. It finally came apart fine, but I was nervous there for a bit with the pickup truck jerking and jumping with the chains banging around.

Ive totally dissassembled the block down to one last nut. One connecting rod bearing cap nut is very close to the inner wall and is quite difficult to reach. The cam is out and the crank is still stuck. I'll probably have to torch a wrench to fit that snug nut. I dont want to destroy the pistons. One piston does have a crack across the top. One engine bank looked to be firing in water, whereas the other bank is much cleaner.

There are a total of 3 minor cracks :cry: in the heads between the valve seats. HotHemi said pinning was the best bet.

Most parts have been photo'd, cleaned, painted, oiled and wrapped for storage. The cam is very nice with no pits with minimal wear, a fine candidate for regrinding. The crank shows some minor imperfections where a pro will have to determine how much work it really needs.

Through the whole process of dis-mantling the motor, I have only broke 3 bolts. 2 small ones on the carb and 1 exhaust stud.

The rockers are wore just a tad on the tips. Who does quality work on these at a decent price? I guess I should have them fluxed, resurfaced and balanced?

I keep reading about 392 parts crossing to Desotos??? I have yet to find on the web a list of ANY parts that cross from the 392 to the desoto line. Any info on this would be much appreciated?

Is the WCFB capable of suppling enough cfm to this motor with performace increases? If not, whats my options?

Thanks for your replies,
The Originalwirehead

[/img]

George
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Post by George » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:02 pm

The WCFB is supposed to be just under 500 CFM. Running the carb formula reveals 550 CFM, so...stay stock or go with a 600. Nothing seems to interchange between Chr & DeSoto. Reportedly Dodge 315/325 rods interchange w tall deck DeSoto.

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

swap info

Post by originalwirehead » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:14 am

Hi George,

Heres an ad from ebay-[/url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 8&rd=1[url]

Converted Milodon High Volume 340 Chrysler Oil Pump, with built in rear sump pick up for 7 1/2" deep rear sump oil pans. Will fit Chrysler 392 & DeSoto.

I guess because it has an adapter plate that allows it to fit both?

Mike[/url]

George
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: swap info

Post by George » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:09 am

originalwirehead wrote:Hi George,

Heres an ad from ebay-[/url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 8&rd=1[url]

Converted Milodon High Volume 340 Chrysler Oil Pump, with built in rear sump pick up for 7 1/2" deep rear sump oil pans. Will fit Chrysler 392 & DeSoto.

I guess because it has an adapter plate that allows it to fit both?

Mike[/url]
Got me on that one, wasn't thinking of oil pumps! In stock configuration, the same oil pump was used on high deck Chr, Dodge & DeSotos.

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

Heres another desoto and 392

Post by originalwirehead » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:04 pm

George,

Thanks for the info George. Im not trying to "get" anybody. Im the new guy thats wet behind the ears, I grew up on BOP. Now that I own a real motor, I just am trying to gather as much information as possible for parts acquisition during the rebuild. I've bought a couple reference books but crossing soto parts are obviously slim. I'd like to know what a Hollander shows as interchangeable. Got one?

I contacted Sanderson headers a couple weeks ago, plus I scanned their website, but cust service said they would have to make'm. Theres this one seller on ebay thats selling desoto 341 392 headers. So I checked the 392 gasket set and the exhaust is flat oval and the desoto's are round. They are definitely different. The guy on ebay must be using "key word spamming" to gather more attention to his products, instead of listing accurate descriptions. I have lots to learn! :oops:

Heres the link:. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Desoto- ... ZViewItem.

I cleaned the gum off the crank today and wired all the oil holes. Tomorrow, I plan on fine sanding the journals. I dont see any deep grooves, but I do see what looks like the chrome has flaked off with dark patches. There is a pair of dark 1/4" wide lines around the #1 main and a few less serious rings on others. Hoping to find a crank in a locked block that would not need turned is a dream for sure. Im betting 10 & 10.

Does anybody got anything good/otherwise to say about Fowler Engines Inc. in Columbus, Ohio?

http://www.fowlerengines.com/Home/tabid ... fault.aspx

Til next time,
the wirehead

George
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Post by George » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:16 pm

The pre '68 lifters for the 361/413 BB are supposed to work in all early Hemis, they do in 331 Chr, even though they aren't exactly the same. If you don't have it, get a copy of Leo Lundquist's stock parts number book. You may find things that cross reference by studying it Leorob51@frontiernet.net

38 mopar_fan
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:12 pm

Post by 38 mopar_fan » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Lifters my kind of subject, scrounged around and got a 330 lifter, got a 383 lifter and the oil grove is in exactly the same location got a small block 318 to 360 lifter and the oil grove is further down the lifter. Figured I could turn the small block lifter grove and make it the same as the 330 one. The guy that supplied the 383 lifter told me you could put small block lifter in a big block but not the other way around. Any way the ball size in the pushrod that different. So you can’t use the 330 small ball pushrods in the big block wedge lifters. Not a problem if you buy new pushrods because they can be supplied with either size balls.

Now got a question for you guys. The Desoto thermostat, I noticed the water bypass is on the thermostat housing, I assume the thermostat seals up into the housing and the bypass is on the block side so water can circulate when the thermostat is closed Any body got a photo of one I could look at?

Cheers

Peter

four-thirteen
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:38 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Post by four-thirteen » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:15 pm

If you are after some non-cracked heads, i have a pair i'll sell fairly cheap. let me know if you want them.

As far as the rockers, most shops that grind valves have the tools to resurface the rockers. Sioux has an attachment to their valve grinders to grind the rocker tips. Problem is most shops i've been to don't have any idea what it is. If your local shop knows how to do it have them surface the pads. A through inspection after bead blasting the arms is really all you need to do for a mostly stock motor. David

ward3162
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:53 am

341 Build

Post by ward3162 » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:09 am

Wirehead........
Interchangable parts between early model hemi's is virtually nothing. From my experience not really worth the effort. What is the desired result your looking for from your build (i.e HP/Torque). Aftermarket performance products for Desoto's is extremely rare. I ended up having to purchase one of the original dual quad setups for the 341 off EBAY. EXPENSIVE. But it's about the only thing performance wise available for the motor and it's not exactly high tech. Unless you want to go with the new EFI systems (5k-6K). We're in the early stages of my build and the only thing out of the ordinary so far is resizing the valves to use Pontiac chrome stem valves. Better durability/performance. The machinist/friend who is doing my build is experienced in new and old hemi's and I kind of defer to his judement on things. My basic build will consist of .060 bore, 9.5-9.75 compression, dual quad (500cfm AFB's) moderate cam regrind....we have not come up with the cam numbers yet. Hoping to get approx. 400-410HP.
Keep the 341 info coming. There's not alot of us DeSoto guys out there.

Ward

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

341 Desoto hemi pictures

Post by originalwirehead » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:10 pm

I just got some more pictures loaded of my 341. :o Included at the end of the album are the requested pictures of the water neck and bypass and those darn dreaded head cracks. There are actually only 3 cracks but 5 pictures showing with and without flash.

Later,
Mike

http://bnbrepairservices.spaces.live.com

ward3162
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:53 am

341 Build

Post by ward3162 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:27 am

Mike,

Good on ya! Your really bring this one back from the dead. Where did you find this motor....car...barn...field? The good thing about these old hemis is all the internals are forged and withstand a lot of machine work. Don't mean to offend but won't you be better off just buying another set of heads? By the time you fix these ones you'll probably have more $ in machine work than the price of undamaged heads. Heads for this motor (330/341) are on EBAY and Hot Heads on a regular basis. Another good site is H.A.M.B..
What are you looking to do with the motor...performance wise?

Good Luck,
Ward

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

341 S26 heads

Post by originalwirehead » Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:01 pm

Ward,

Yes, it'll be a feat of madness to bring this one back from the dead. But, I have never backed down from a challenge and lost. With proper planning and lots of research combined with a pile of cash, I should be able to pull it off. Dont worry about offending me, Im a person that knows alot about nothing and knows nothing about something.

I found the Dodge Dart Phoenix by chance from a relatives' business dealing's installing a satelite dish. My relative mentioned the 'ol guy had lots of stuff sitting around and he had an old hemi. I have never saw an old hemi in the rough so I pursued the lead and luckily enough it came to bear fruit. Behind the barn and next to the cornfield in weeds 6 foot tall there was an old rusty ragtop car with the dirt up to the axles/frame. The old guy showed it to me and a few weeks later he called me and asked if I wanted to deal on it. Check out the link to see the updated pictures on the unknown :-? carb tag and the Dart Phoenix as found in the weeds. Theres also a pix of the original ID plate not decoded :-? from the ragtop Phoenix.

The heads are a problem. I want to keep it original but the expense may outweigh the decision to keep the original heads that were mounted on the block. Shipping 2 heads looks to be about $120 plus the cost of the heads themselves. I estimate around $250 for replacement heads to my door. I have not taken the heads to my local machine shop for an estimate yet, the guy said he'd have to see them to quote a price. Im more or less letting that issue simmer on the back burner to see what pops up, changes or materlizes. David, four-thirteen offered a set of heads, thanks by the way, and might have to take that route.

With Xmas just around the corner and snow coming soon here in Ohio, I have dis-assembled the engine into its pieces and have started a cleaning and reconditioning/grading system for the winter. All parts except for the 4 final pistons that are still stuck(brake fluid soaking) in the block, have been degreased, cleaned, oiled, painted and wrapped up in dry storage. The pistons are beyond saving because of the rusty rings.

My plans for the S26 are flexible of course, im always open to suggestions.

1. Rebuild block in stock config with performaces add ons and tweeks keeping compression ratio low and install in a ratrod.

After saving funds, performing more research and enjoying the ratrod.

2. Rebuild block using blower on pump gas. Blower manifold options are very slim. I plan on using forged pistons, stock rods, reground cam, hydraulic liters and keeping the rpms below 6k. This is where all you guys with experience in this matter chime in and tell me what i need to do with the stock rebuild so I dont make the block unstabe for blower operation.

What am I overlooking?

Mike

http://bnbrepairservices.spaces.live.com

ward3162
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:53 am

Hemi Heads

Post by ward3162 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:24 pm

Mike,

You anywhere near Willington,OH. Guy on EBAY has a set of 330 heads for sale #180179547999 as well as a crank. These will work on/in your 341. Can't be of much help with the blower issue........never used one. Strictly a carb guy.
But from what I understand you want to keep the CR down around the stock number.

Ward

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

parts is parts

Post by originalwirehead » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:06 am

Yes, I did see that. The seller is only a hour away. :D

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

main girdle up for grabs on ebay

Post by originalwirehead » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:08 pm

desoto hemi main cap girdle 276 330 341 gasser Item # 200181553939

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/desoto-h ... enameZWDVW

Just thought somebody out there might want some strength in their bottom end.

George
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Post by George » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:07 pm

Speaking of the HAMB & intakes, check out this http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/show ... &showall=1

TrWaters
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: Vermont
Contact:

Post by TrWaters » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:46 pm

IMO, that girdle is absolutely worthless. Thats why they dont make them.

Pete's intake on the other hand is a very nice piece. I cant wait to get my hands on one.
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

originalwirehead
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:54 am

Re: Desoto S26 341 update

Post by originalwirehead » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:34 am

Hello Hemi Heads!

Time for an update on my DeSoto 341 S26. I just got word from the machine shop that my block and mains are ok. :D That is such wonderful news after so much time has passed since I pulled the motor from the Phoenix hoping it wasn't scrap. Now I have so many things to do...cam, rockers, crank, heads and intake. Intake, what intake to use????

Heres my quandry- I have a good 341 block and I havent decided how to proceed:
1. remain NA and run dual quads, high compression, headers, reground cam, bore?
2. single stock quad and use NOS, compression?, headers, reground cam, bore?
3. supercharge, low compression, headers, reground cam, bore?

My plans are to implant this block into a newer ElCamino street rod, weight unknown with an automatic. Which option 1,2,3 would be more durable with the most streetable horsepower, with an emphasis on DURABLE?

I dont want to deal with adjustable pushrods.

Thanks for your help,
Mike

George
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Fl

Re: Desoto S26 341 update + rocker reconditioning

Post by George » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:47 pm

#1! :D

Post Reply